The Dragon Demands

Councilor Keeper of the Lore
  • I live in New York City
  • My occupation is Medieval Historian
  • I am Male

Pre-Administratorship Talk-page Archive


I've upgraded you to admin. This will allow you to help with blocking vandals, altering certain limited pages and so on. Congrats, your work on the wiki has been very good :-) --Werthead (talk) 15:10, February 26, 2013 (UTC)

"There is difference between a grub
and a butterfly; yet your butterfly was a grub.
This Martius is grown from man to Dragon:
he has wings; he is more than a creeping thing."

-- Coriolanus, Act V, Scene IV

Here do I swear fealty and service to the Game of Thrones Wiki, and to Werthead the Founder and head Administrator of the Wiki: to speak and to be silent, to do and to let be, to come and to go, in need or plenty, in peace or war, in living or dying, from this hour henceforth, until my lord release me, or death take me, or the world end.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:42, February 26, 2013 (UTC)


You and me both! lol I had no idea how to do it, and couldn't find anyone, so I got the staff to help. :) QueenBuffy35px-Pink crown 22:34, February 27, 2013 (UTC)

Iron Price and Old Way

I believe the Old Way is the more wide concept, which includes the "iron price", and it has been openly established in the House Greyjoy featurette. What do you think, separate articles or "Iron Price" as a subsection of the Old Way?--Gonzalo84 (talk) 19:38, March 3, 2013 (UTC)

The problem is that the Starks also call the Old Gods "the Old Way", in dialogue on-screen (episode 1, Bran answers Ned that Ned had to personally execute a Night's Watch deserter, because "our way is the Old Way"). It's vague enough that I think it may be better to put all of the ironborn info onto "Iron Price" (noting that they call the overall pattern "the old way"), but make a disambiguation page noting that this could refer to either the Old Gods of the North, or the ironborn raiding lifestyle.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 21:06, March 3, 2013 (UTC)
I have placed the irnonborn Old Way - which mirrors AWoIAF - under "Old Way (ironborn)", just in case.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 21:36, March 3, 2013 (UTC)

House Front Page Game

Porterfield is someone who works at Wikia, and there's a big effort by Wikia to publicise the Wiki at the moment as noted on the blog entry. Whether this is a good thing or not is up for debate: Boy Who Cried Direwolf has already pointed out several major flaws with it. It's also worth noting that the Wiki generates an absolute ton of hits and traffic for Wikia (and thus advertising revenue), especially during the time the show is on-air, so clearly they want to get in on that to advertise Wikia as a whole. However, we are also only able to do the work on the Wiki that we do because of Wikia providing the service, so giving something back to them seems reasonable, as long as it does not disrupt the Wiki itself too much.--Werthead (talk) 10:34, March 6, 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I didn't realize this was a wikia-wide cross-promotion sort of thing (my criticisms were basically those off the Boy: having it on our front page would make people sign up just to compete then leave). But I didn't realize this was bigger than I thought it was. I guess I associated it with that girl who came on here trying to get us to sign up for her own fan awards despite never contributing, but this is different.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 15:57, March 7, 2013 (UTC)
Why was it removed off the main page? Anything that is ever removed off the main page should be discussed (within reason of course). Something like that however, a slider created by a staff member, should not be removed. Will it be returning?

QueenBuffy35px-Pink crown 16:06, March 7, 2013 (UTC)

I removed it because it wasn't discussed with us first.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 16:08, March 7, 2013 (UTC)
It's pretty safe to say that if the wikia staff created it, it's safe to keep on the main page. QueenBuffy35px-Pink crown 16:10, March 7, 2013 (UTC)

Redundant pic

Made a mistake. Didn't notice that this pic was already uploaded so just wondering if you or somebody wouldn't mind deleting it. Thanks in advance. CestWhat (talk) 18:59, March 13, 2013 (UTC)


I just discovered that you can protect uncreated articles.Gonzalo84 (talk) 02:14, March 14, 2013 (UTC)

I was not aware. Then without delay, delete the article in question and protect its uncreated space.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 02:15, March 14, 2013 (UTC)

Kingsguard Season 3

Please, check the new forum on Kingsguard members in Season 3. Input would be appreciated.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 15:25, March 18, 2013 (UTC)

Hello from Wikia!

We've noticed the great work you've done on Game of Thrones Wiki and we were wondering if you have five minutes for a Skype chat this week. We have a couple of fun Wikia opportunities coming up, and we wanted to share them with you to get your input. Please message me back if you're interested. Thank you! 

Cshannon (talk) 13:17, March 19, 2013 (UTC)

Duplicate blogs

Hi Dragon.

If I may, I'd recommend deleting duplicate blogs, such as this. The Wikia staff have already created a "what will happen in season 3" blog, and allowing users to start multiple ones will result in the recent activity page being reduced to an un-navigable mess of shallow, inane comments.--250px40px 17:59, March 21, 2013 (UTC)

Irri's departure

Acharia has said very clearly on Reddit that the visa issue has been overcome and she could have stayed on the show easily, but the writers decided she should go. Have clarified that on the relevant pages. We can go back to being grumpy at Dan and Dave for the decision :) --Werthead (talk) 11:35, March 24, 2013 (UTC)

...Darn them. And Jhiqui has vanished into the ether.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 14:51, March 24, 2013 (UTC)

How does it work with the 'In the books' category. Which kind of info may be put in there to still be.. true to the series. I'm obviously new to editing anything on wikia :] Grumphy (talk) 21:23, March 24, 2013 (UTC)

Oh okay...thanks for your effort..."in the books" is supposed to be SPOILER FREE but relevant information from the books; it ceases to be a spoiler if the TV series outpaced it. For example, Joffrey's humiliation of Sansa in the courtroom in the fourth episode of season 2 was much more graphic in the books, so we might explain how that was done differently. Oh, just general background information that the books gave about the characters that the TV show hasn't yet but doesn't "spoil" anything. Just try and we'll correct stuff and you'll learn by example. When in doubt....if you're unsure of what to add, logically, don't add hundreds of posts a day (some idiot a few months back would make hundreds of bad edits a day to "in the books" while admitting that he didn't know what he was doing. This wasnt' "learning" this was "ignoring our warnings". Well, for that information you posted about Rhaegar for example (sorry I yelled) that stuff about his personality or appearance would go under "in the books" - it doesn't really spoil anything to say he enjoyed reading and was quite scholarly before taking up the sword, etc. This is "public knowledge" you see; but shocking revelations about Rhaegar from later books should not be put in (i.e. you really shouldn't bring up Jon Connington at this point). --The Dragon Demands (talk) 21:45, March 24, 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your answer. I see now, and ofcourse no problem about the yelling. I understand it must be frustrating to see newcomers make bad edits while the rules have grown custom to you. I would really like to edit a few of those 'In the books' categories and will keep in mind what to write and what not to. Ofcourse I won't make many at the same time and I'll check if anyone changes what I wrote. I would really like to contribute to this wikia as I've been using it for a long time and this seems like a great opportunity to learn and keep expanding my knowledge of GoT. Again, thanks for your time and I promiss to do better in the future. Grumphy (talk) 23:50, March 24, 2013 (UTC)                                                                   


I don't think she appears. It would be too much of a stretch in speculation.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 23:34, March 24, 2013 (UTC)

I suppose so. Well, could we use a screenshot of her on the "Summer Islands" page?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 23:40, March 24, 2013 (UTC)


Yup, actually. We can certainly have an article about it (it falls into the same category as grumpkins and snarks, or legendary stories). Once S3 kicks in, we can even bring in a comment about the proper giants in the world and how Macumba doesn't fit their description). Also, it doesn't matter if it's not mentioned in the books. If it's mentioned in the TV show, that's fair enough. I actually had a good thought on the canon/continuity differences between the two shows: GAME OF THRONES is the Marvel Ultimates version of ASoIaF. The same story and characters, but completely separate from the original with the freedom to do its own thing if it wants.--Werthead (talk) 22:07, March 26, 2013 (UTC)


I just saw that you decided to go ahead and block him.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 19:11, March 28, 2013 (UTC)

Yes, things were on a downward course. Particularly right before the Season 3 premiere, we don't need this. I did what had to be done. you disagree? You said he had strikes. If I misunderstood and you don't think he should remain banned, I will not oppose you.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 19:48, March 28, 2013 (UTC)

Knights and nobility

Knights are not considered to be nobility, but they have their own set of rights and privileges which are similar. They have the right to trial by combat and landed knights have the rights of laws and gallows (i.e. to set rules on their land which do not contravene the king's law and to execute criminals for heinous offences). In theory, a knight, even a hedge knight, should still be treated with respect and courtesy by everyone, although in practice a hedge knight will be looked down upon by a sworn sword or a lord. Being a knight is something of a big deal in Westeros (as seen by Ser Hugh refusing to talk even to the personal representative of the Hand of the King in Season 1 because he's not a knight), but not as big as being a proper lord.--Werthead (talk) 10:50, March 29, 2013 (UTC)


Chat? :) QueenBuffy35px-Pink crown 00:28, March 30, 2013 (UTC)

50 mins!

Are you excited?!! Ah, FINALLY time for Season 3! :) QueenBuffy35px-Pink crown 00:10, April 1, 2013 (UTC)

Actually I'm enraged. Ch'Vyalthan took enough time from us (combined with CestWhat's pestering this past week) that we have a lot of work to do that we didn't finish. I do *loosely* have all of the Culture stuff I wanted to get up, well most of it (though it needs quotes and images). I kept putting off revamping the Dragons article for months; I want to lock it (every yahoo anonymous IP editor comes on to edit the shiny dragons article "because dragons are cool!", randomly inserts some sentences without realizing they're redundant, then leaves never to edit again. Also why I've at least blocked all of the major character articles from anonymous editing - seriously, the "Robb, Jon, Tyrion, Arya, Daenerys, Dragons" crowd buzzing the wiki just goof up the rest of us. (sigh) -- I should be done fixing up all the Culture stuff and such soon enough, but I haven't been able to rewatch the first two seasons "with a fine toothed comb", pausing scene by scene to squeeze every ounce of info out of them (I only just finished "Lord Snow"). I can't wait for episode 9 of Season 3, that's when all the shallow fans will get their surprise - the folks on Entertainment Weekly or blogs or whatever that only watch the show because it's "watercooler TV" or for the sex scenes; they have no idea what this story is.--The Dragon Demands (talk)
I haven't read the books yet, but I am up-to-date on them and know the spoilers. The wedding scene is going to be rough! Do you think we should go ahead and lock/protect some main pages? QueenBuffy35px-Pink crown 00:23, April 1, 2013 (UTC)

Also, do you think we should change the "Episodes" tab up top? Remove "Pilot Episode" so that "Season 3" link can fit? QueenBuffy35px-Pink crown 00:29, April 1, 2013 (UTC)

Oh seriously! Wow. I am so excited! Yeah, I noticed her dragon's had more "bad-ass" moments than Dany actually did. lol QueenBuffy35px-Pink crown 00:33, April 1, 2013 (UTC)

Yes. Anyone who wants to compare the pilot episode would be reading the article on "Winter is Coming" and see the link to "previous episode". By the way, I was interested in creating a new top-level tab on "Culture and Society" separate from "Episodes" and "Characters" so casual fans will find those easier (I suspect that most of them just click on "Tyrion Lannister" and the title of the most current episode - how would they even find "Faith of the Seven"?) - but I have no idea how to do that. Oh Dany gets "badass" moments independent of the dragons in book 3 -- well the dragons are cooler than ever and they are an extension of her, but we're not just staring at CGI dragons anymore; her story picks up. Remember: the idiot hands her the whip. He handed her the god-damned whip. Dear god I couldn't tell if I was laughing or crying.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 00:37, April 1, 2013 (UTC)

LOL! Oh man, I cannot wait! 20 more minutes. I'm so excited, but then I remember, before we know it... Season 3 will be over too :( I went ahead and protected Valar Dohaeris as well. For now, I will go ahead and remove the pilot tab and add Season 3- we can work on the others later :) QueenBuffy35px-Pink crown 00:42, April 1, 2013 (UTC)


I think a culture template infobox would be more accurate for human peoples. For example, it is implied that Dothraki and Lhazareen pretty much share teh same racial background, but their cultures are different.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 02:03, April 1, 2013 (UTC)


I noticed one of the soldiers at Harrenhal had an X broach on his armor. I know I've seen Joffrey torchering a guy, while chained/roped up in an X shape. What does a man on an X mean? QueenBuffy35px-Pink crown 06:23, April 1, 2013 (UTC)

Valar Dohaeris locked

I would have added a cast list to the episode, if the episode was not locked. If you want people to add something you have to unlock the page. I can see every episode page is locked.--Mesmermann (talk) 17:14, April 1, 2013 (UTC)

Oh thanks for reminding me; it was locked to prevent knee-jerk over-editing during the hype of the season premiere night. I have unlocked it now.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 17:25, April 1, 2013 (UTC)


Hi there! I know the message you sent me was automatic, but thanks! But there's one thing I need help with also. I was looking through pages to see if they needed any editing and I came across the Sophie Turner page and I was about to edit it, but it was locked. Could you unlock it, please? Thanks again! :) {{SUBST:User:Lily!/sig}} 20:11, April 1, 2013 (UTC)

Admins who are inactive

Have you noticed we have a few Admins who have been inactive for quite sometime. Should they continue to be Admins? What is your take on it? QueenBuffy35px-Pink crown 02:23, April 2, 2013 (UTC)

...I am deeply angered that they essentially abandoned us to suffer the deprivations of Ch'Vyalthan's Reign of Terror from October to January Fall 2012. The question is not "if" an inactive Administrator should continue in their position, but "how long" of an inactive period warrants removing their Adminship.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 02:50, April 2, 2013 (UTC)
I agree. LordofOnions is about 2 years inactive and KarinS is a year. Should we bring this to Werthead? QueenBuffy35px-Pink crown 03:00, April 2, 2013 (UTC)
Indeed.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 03:01, April 2, 2013 (UTC)
I am also asking the staff to change the word "Admin" on our profiles, to "Knight" :) QueenBuffy35px-Pink crown 03:14, April 2, 2013 (UTC)

I don't think we should change the name; I've seen problems with this on other wikis that take on specific in-universe names for Admins or Moderators. Titles like "Administrator" or "Moderator" are universal and carry weight when you're chewing people out. Fansites that call their Admins "Rangers" or "Wizards" etc., the title doesn't carry the same weight anymore.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 03:19, April 2, 2013 (UTC)

Really? I've never seen a problem with it before, and I've had it on several Wikis. Hmm. Well if they do change it, and it causes an issue, we can always change it back QueenBuffy35px-Pink crown 03:26, April 2, 2013 (UTC)
Real life often gets in the way of contributions. People get into relationships, get new jobs that are exhausting, or simply lose their passion for a project after putting tons of work into it. I'm certainly grateful to those admins and former contributors who did lots of work who, for whatever reason, are no longer contributing. If they also executed the position of admin well before in the past, I see no problem with them retaining the position if and when they return. Certainly I've been highly active on wikis in the past and have essentially given up on them to work on this one, but intermittently return to work on the others when I have the time. I see no reason to remove admin powers from anyone unless they are actually abusing them.--Werthead (talk) 11:23, April 12, 2013 (UTC)

For example, and as QueenBuffy knows, I am the Bureaucrat of Buffyverse Wiki, but have taken a long break because mantaining that site was a lot of work, and chose to contribute here. I don't know when I'll go back there.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 15:57, April 12, 2013 (UTC)

Well okay if Queenbuffy has nothing else to say either, then nevermind.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 17:56, April 14, 2013 (UTC)


I was wondering about certain adjective vocab words on some pages. For example: in the Daenerys Targaryen article, the image states drogon is the size of a small dog, but in the description you wrote he is the size of a large dogS. i dont want to undo your change, but i do think it would be better to have consistency between the image text and the article text, also, Drogon is the size of a small dog, not a large one, it says so in the books (chapter 27) and also simply from common sense.Noc noc... whos their? Darknesssss (talk) 14:53, April 2, 2013 (UTC)

Oh...I had intended to write "large dog" one every article, and if that was inconsistent it was a mistake. I'm a cat person so I kind of forget just how large dogs can get (St. Bernards, Mastiffs, etc.). If the books stated "small dogs", then yes we should say "small dogs" in our descriptions ( I remember from A Clash of Kings that Dany points out that Dragons seem a lot bigger than they actually are, because they're creatures of mostly wing, neck, and tail; their body cores are much smaller - which they'd kind of have to be, to in any way plausibly be able to carry their own weight in flight).--The Dragon Demands (talk) 15:08, April 2, 2013 (UTC)

Family name

On the SSM section of - the site is down again right now - GRRM actually outlines how surnames work in Westeros. Basically, there are no hard and fast rules. A woman from a powerful family might choose to keep her name if marrying into a less powerful one, explaining Cersei; Robert might be king, but the Lannisters are richer, older and more powerful by themselves than the Baratheons. OTOH, the Starks and Arryns are far more ancient, powerful and richer than the Tullys, so Cat and Lysa change their surnames. With equal families there might be a bit of give or take between them. This doesn't really help with the Talisa situation though, since the rules for changing names between Westerosi and Essosi marriages have never been established. Talisa now being called "Talisa Maegyr Stark" might be the best course, since, even if she is related to the ruling Maegyrs of Volantis, the Starks are still considerably more ancient (Winterfell having been founded 3,000 years earlier even than Valyria).--Werthead (talk) 17:50, April 2, 2013 (UTC)

Split Battle of the Camps from Whispering Wood

I was wondering, since you're one of the main contributors of Battle of the Whispering Wood article, if you could extract the "the Camps" info from it and create the Battle of the Camps article?--Gonzalo84 (talk) 18:12, April 4, 2013 (UTC)

Dark Wings, Dark Word Locked

Will you open Dark Wings, Dark Words when the episode aires because I want to add cast credits to the episode. Thanks.

--Mesmermann (talk) 19:14, April 7, 2013 (UTC)

CestWhat sockpuppets

I'll deal with them myself.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 21:11, April 11, 2013 (UTC)

Damn, you went ahead... I wanted to showcase their flayed skins on my hall. Oh well--Gonzalo84 (talk) 21:14, April 11, 2013 (UTC)
Sockpuppets count as one person, they don't get new spikes on the wall.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 21:17, April 11, 2013 (UTC)
You know, I was under the impression that "Quotablecharacters" was Ch'vyalthan reincarnated.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 21:23, April 11, 2013 (UTC)
I lay awake at night afraid that LovelyChrys, Ch'Vyalthan, and CestWhat are going to band together to form their own Legion of Doom (like an out of universe House Blackfyre). But they lack conviction.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 21:26, April 11, 2013 (UTC)

OMG DD now THAT is hilarious. Legion of Doom&Gloom! lol QueenBuffy35px-Pink crown 18:16, April 12, 2013 (UTC)

I do imagine CestWhat getting annoyed with Ch'vyalthan's not understanding anything while Chrys tries to make everyting all about her, and then yelling "I'm surrounded by idiots".


Another CestWhat sockpuppet, I think. First few edits have been fiddling around with the "née" in female character intros.--250px40px 17:22, April 14, 2013 (UTC)

House Lannister

Oh, they have always been my favorite... I don't know why it took me so long to update my home page! lol QueenBuffy35px-Pink crown 01:16, April 15, 2013 (UTC)

In the trailer for And Now His Watch is Ended, do you know who the character is, who is wearing the eye patch? I have a good screencap of him. QueenBuffy35px-Pink crown 04:55, April 15, 2013 (UTC)
I believe that is Beric Dondarrion, leader of the Brotherhood Without Banners.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 04:57, April 15, 2013 (UTC)
Ahh, you guys are so smart!!!! QueenBuffy35px-Pink crown 05:08, April 15, 2013 (UTC)

Whores from the books

I clearly heard "Marei". Don't remember well the other two.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 02:54, April 15, 2013 (UTC)

Problem is that I'd only be spelling them phonetically. Funny thing is I heard complaints that there was "a lot of nudity" in this episode, but to be honest, I think it's not too bad so long as 1 - It's an established, canon couple (Robb/Talisa - why was there no Eddard/Catelyn as in the books?), or 2 - it's an actual brothel with "customers". Some of the "sexposition" scenes strained credibility. But "Tyrion and Bronn reward Pod with a trip to Littlefinger's brothel" - plausible enough without inventing new..."scenarios". --The Dragon Demands (talk) 03:00, April 15, 2013 (UTC)

Character bios

Remember that these should be concise summaries of the characters' actions, not hyper-detailed narrations of entire scenes.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 17:23, April 15, 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I know, thank you for making the Missandei article more concise; when I'm in a hurry I just write all I can and don't focus on concision (the logic being that it's easy to cut extra stuff out later).--The Dragon Demands (talk) 17:24, April 15, 2013 (UTC)

Josephine Gillan as Marei

Good work on spotting she's the "new prostitute" in Season 2... could you please merge the two articles while I work on "Kayla".--Gonzalo84 (talk) 17:26, April 15, 2013 (UTC)

Oh I wasn't the one that noticed that. I'll get on the characters...--The Dragon Demands (talk) 17:27, April 15, 2013 (UTC)
Oh, if it wasn't you then lets make sure this is accurate.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 18:17, April 15, 2013 (UTC)


Just wanted to mention- I know you are tired of seeing the same ol' mistakes from editors, but remember to try and remain friendly. Your tone can come off rather "harsh" and we want to keep contributors coming back here :) QueenBuffy35px-Pink crown 06:00, April 16, 2013 (UTC)

Oh, okay.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 17:06, April 16, 2013 (UTC)

Princes in the Tower

I think there may be an echo of them there, but much more overt is the reference of the 'Princesses in the Tower', King Baelor's sisters whom he locked in the Maidenvault of the Red Keep so they would not tempt him to carnal thoughts. They had a happier ending though :) --Werthead (talk) 07:08, April 16, 2013 (UTC)

The phrase, yes, but Richard III didn't exactly lock up Edward V to prevent him from tempting him with carnal thoughts.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 17:07, April 16, 2013 (UTC)

Spare time we don't have.

I know we don't really have "spare" time, but if you happen to find some, I could use some help going through these uncategorized files and either delete them, or categorize them properly. I figured if we all do a little here and there, they will eventually get finished :) Special:UncategorizedFiles QueenBuffy35px-Pink crown 20:14, April 16, 2013 (UTC)

Interview with talent from Game of Thrones

Hi, Please let fans know that I did an interview with Michele Clapton, who designs the beautiful costumes for Game of Thrones. It can be read at


Brenda71.62.18.144 23:45, April 16, 2013 (UTC)


There's only one ship they have at all, which filled in as Theon's ship at the start of Season 2, Black Betha, Fury and Daenerys's ship as well. They actually wanted to build two of different designs and sizes so they could vary it up, but HBO said no.--Werthead (talk) 15:26, April 18, 2013 (UTC)


Another sockpuppet??--Gonzalo84 (talk) 05:02, April 21, 2013 (UTC)

Contacting Wikia Staff

You should be able to find an appropriate link to them Here. Someone will contact you via email or through this Wikia page within 2 business days usually. QueenBuffy35px-Pink crown 05:12, April 21, 2013 (UTC)

Dragon Titles

While i do belive Daenerys's Dragons should still be named after there book names, some people might not know them, and thus search them under the names "Black Dragon", "Green Dragon", and "White Dragon". Is there anyway to make it so if someone searches said names it redirects to them? Like adding to there articles "Drogon, also know as the black dragon" as an example.Noc noc... whos their? Darknesssss (talk) 08:53, April 21, 2013 (UTC)

Small Council Image

If you look at the image details here: File:Small Council meeting.png You will see that his image was on lots of other pages. You may want to go through them and delete the broken links; or restore the image and mess with it later. Just wanted to give ya heads up :) QueenBuffy35px-Pink crown 17:54, April 21, 2013 (UTC)

Oh crud. Thanks for the headsup I'll check out the other pages.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 17:57, April 21, 2013 (UTC)


Yo, i think this guy:

Put a bunch of links on the new episode article, they are spam. 

Locked page

It's hard for me to edit And Now His Watch is Ended when it's locked. Wll you please unlock it.--Mesmermann (talk) 02:33, April 22, 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, sorry; as you can see from the above post, people kept vandalizing it.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 02:52, April 22, 2013 (UTC)

And now his watch is ended

Just finished the episode... one word. WOW! You were right about Dany! That was just amazing! QueenBuffy35px-Pink crown 06:12, April 22, 2013 (UTC)

I told you: book 3 is why people are Daenerys fans, not even the book 1 Dothraki stuff so much (as a guy, the whole "swept away by fierce barbarian whom I nonetheless master with seduction" pulp trashy romance novel storyline kind of stuff....I really don't grasp very well. But that's why I didn't think to make a Dany/Drogo page...). The idiot hands her the whip. Oh god you should have seen this in the books: the cat-o-nine-tails they give her has razor-blades stuck at the ends so it will really tear flesh off of any slave you hit with it: after saying "a dragon is no slave", Daenerys punctuates this by quickly slashing the whip across Kraznys' face....ripping a large amount of Kraznys' flesh off his face. TV show chose not to do that, eh, might have been too much for TV.
From here on out, this Targaryen party is going on tour.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 06:18, April 22, 2013 (UTC)
I cannot wait! That ending gave me chills!!! It was AHHH, just so great! BTW, I noticed you've been blocking a lot of users who may or may not be CestWhat. We need to somehow be really sure it's the sockpuppet before blocking. I'd hate if we blocked innocent editors. Oh, I was really surprised by Joer's death too! I didn't see that coming! QueenBuffy35px-Pink crown 07:22, April 22, 2013 (UTC)
They follow an insultingly similar pattern: no one else is really editing dialogue templates and working on family trees, I mean *new* users don't just jump on and start doing that. So far, anyway, no one has followed up by complaining (using anonymous IP address) that their account was banned for no reason; pretty sure it was actually CestWhat each time.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 00:32, April 24, 2013 (UTC)

Certain bastard

Soo.. from what we've learned from the fourth episode this season, do you think it's safe to unite the pages of certain character and certain Boy, or do you think that we stil need a confirmation? [1]--KIWIBOλ (talk) 21:45, April 24, 2013 (UTC)

I think it would still be a spoiler by this point. Perhaps after "Kissed by Fire" we'll be able to merge them. QueenBuffy35px-Pink crown 20:44, April 22, 2013 (UTC)
We've all known who is who since before Season 3 began. It's not a matter of if "we" fans know: the wiki needs to be spoiler-free for fans who haven't read the books. Similarly, when Season 1 began, we couldn't just write "Joffrey isn't really Robert's son", that was obvious, but had to wait until the show actually revealed it. So until we hear "the name" on screen, we can't use it - heck, his name hasn't actually appeared in dialogue at all yet; his dad refers to "his bastard" but that's it.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 00:00, April 24, 2013 (UTC)
His name is mentioned in a letter, but lets keep it that way for now.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 00:04, April 24, 2013 (UTC)
While they did release a good official photo of that letter in the "Inside the Episode" feature, it wasn't visible on-screen. Again the casual fans don't really pay attention to such things.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 00:07, April 24, 2013 (UTC)


That's what I've been saying about all of the characters who don't have names who've been given them on the wiki :) For this one in particular, I have no idea. Mago was explicitly named on-screen and then killed off (when he's set to reappear, apparently in a fairly major way, in Book 6). Who knows what's going on with Marillion? So the character being killed off has no real bearing on whether he's the book character or not. In this instance I'd call him Master Torturer until we get any more confirmation.--Werthead (talk) 09:26, April 24, 2013 (UTC)

We aren't sure if Marillion is dead.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 13:28, April 24, 2013 (UTC)

Hello, a question, doing various proofreading for english errors I did find some and wanted to fix them. I have found the pages locked and would like to know if I am a registered user? Is there a reveal somewhere as to what pages are locked for editing? Thank-you, Susan AeSusan Ae (talk) 16:17, April 24, 2013 (UTC)

oh...we locked some of the major character pages because we had problems with people posting spoilers in them, i.e. "Robb Stark". We can't really lift the protection right now (though if there's a huge problem I guess you could point it out on an article's talk page).--The Dragon Demands (talk) 16:31, April 24, 2013 (UTC)

Season links

Oh, really? I thought that was a general faux pas. I'll go correct any that I removed. Thanks for the heads up!

Siggy4.png @@fandom (profile)•(talk)•(email) 17:25, April 24, 2013 (UTC)
well, uh (embarassed) I don't know if that's the format Werthead wants us to use, I just sort of assumed all this time that it was.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 17:29, April 24, 2013 (UTC)
Yeah, I always put links in the headers, since if you don't, you then need to then put a link in the body text underneath, which can result in awkward and redundant phrasing ("Season 2: In [[Season 2]] the character blah blah") rather than just getting on with the entry.--Werthead (talk) 11:45, May 10, 2013 (UTC)

Links to AWoIAF

at the end of "(spoilers from the books)." you don't need to add a period. Its not a sentence, just a phrase, like a headline.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 18:44, April 24, 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the info

Iv have heard about the spoilers that you wrote before, but thanks anyway. My question mainly aimed at the Stak family. Was is it or going to be totaly eliminated? replaced and so on. I understand it is more than just about that family that everything is combined in the story. Anyway despite the negative acts and defeat -  still cheer and respect the house of stark! Thanks

20:58, April 24, 2013 (UTC)Scare Cr0w 

I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come!"

Well done!

You, unlike us at the DowntonAbbey Wiki, have finally managed to deal with CestWhat. I want him gone - and utterly blocked - from the other wiki, but he/she/it never will be.

I thought I'd just write to congratulate you on doing THE BEST THING EVER!HarryPotterRules1 (talk) 21:45, April 25, 2013 (UTC)


What was the prostitute's name that slept with Loras? I have his picture... QueenBuffy35px-Pink crown 06:33, April 29, 2013 (UTC)

Olyvar.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 06:37, April 29, 2013 (UTC)
I don't think he was a prostitute, just Loras' squire, who happens to be spying for Littlefinger.--250px40px 06:49, April 29, 2013 (UTC)
Feel free to make changes as you see fit, but sleeping with someone just for information does seem rather "prostitue-ish" lol QueenBuffy35px-Pink crown 07:00, April 29, 2013 (UTC)

Garlan and Willas...

Have both been removed from the updated House Tyrell family tree in the Season 3 Viewer's Guide. Not sure how you want to handle this?--250px40px 08:28, April 29, 2013 (UTC)

They were removed in Season 2, just like Shireen. Tywin's line doesn't deny their existance, just that Loras is the eldest son of Mace.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 15:07, April 29, 2013 (UTC)
We're discussing this over on the episode talk page. But yeah, Shireen was also removed as were some other third-tier characters, so I think there's a chance they might later choose to forget that they said he is "the" heir. I've already asked about this in the cargo cult.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 15:12, April 29, 2013 (UTC)

Willas and Garlan

The two might not be removed in the series, it could simply be that Loras was made the eldest son rather than Willas.

DRAEVAN13House-Targaryen-heraldry 15:32, April 29, 2013 (UTC)


How did you know it was another sockpuppet?--Gonzalo84 (talk) 00:02, May 1, 2013 (UTC)

I don't know for sure. I've come to suspect anyone working on family tree templates, because rarely will new users start working on those. I suspect anyone who recently joined the wiki, provides no background information or outside confirmation of identity. Well, new to "wikia" - some people are "new" but have clearly had a long editing history on other Wikia sites, that proves they're not sockpuppets. HOWEVER, my running theory has been that if I ban someone who turns out to not be CestWhat, they'd complain about it. So far, no one has complained, leading me to believe it is indeed Cestwhat.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 02:52, May 1, 2013 (UTC)


I'm pretty sure this user is another CestWhat sock-puppet, but I've filed a "check user" request with the Wikia staff, just to make sure. I'm also going to inquire into ways of dealing with her permanently; for example: blocking her actual IP range, and preventing her from editing Wikia in it's entirety. She must be creating dozens of new accounts each week in anticipation of being blocked.--250px40px 09:01, May 1, 2013 (UTC)

I'm completely willing to block the entire geographical region of Toronto if that's what it takes. Indeed, I've been blocking Toronto-based anonymous IP addresses on sight and will continue to do so. The only reason I haven't is because our blocking tools can't easily be set up to block areas by geographical region. Yes, one bad user can and did "ruin it" for an entire major world city; there will never be another Toronto-based editor on this wiki for the next five seasons that this TV series runs and beyond (unless, they already have a profile on another Wikia site, dating to before 2013, so we know it isn't CestWhat). If the inhabitants of Toronto are upset about this, they should take it up with CestWhat. Until such time as the inhabitants of Toronto string up CestWhat from a lamppost...the entire city must be blocked forever.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 22:02, May 1, 2013 (UTC)
She began using a new one MINUTES after I blocked one.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 02:19, May 2, 2013 (UTC)
She's clearly obsessed. Although I wish we could block entire geographical regions - knowing CestWhat - she'd probably move to Azerbaijan, or someplace; anything to continue making minor edits on a wiki whose community wants nothing whatsoever to do with her. Anyway, I was right about Clearen, and I've asked Wikia to check the IP's of some other accounts that have been cropping up recently. At this stage that's all we can do.--250px40px 09:31, May 2, 2013 (UTC)

The Rains of Castamere (episode)

I will love to add a synopses to the episode, when you and other admins is busy, but it is a little hard to do, when it's locked. I have added a synoses to Mhysa --Mesmermann (talk) 15:56, May 4, 2013 (UTC)

Size of Dog

I'm confused by the dragon being size of a "Small Dog". That's a rough description. The dragon's look huge, more like a large dog, not like a small "Beagle" or "terrier". QueenBuffy35px-Pink crown 18:09, May 6, 2013 (UTC)

Well, in comparison to a mastiff or a St. Bernard. We're talking about the dragon's body core, not the wings. Daenerys specifically points out in the books that dragons are actually a lot smaller than they seem at first, because they're mostly wing, tail, and neck -- they have to be, in order to be light enough that their wings can proportionately give them enough lift to fly at all.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:11, May 6, 2013 (UTC)
Ok, that makes sense. I could see them more the size of a Beagle now, rather than a Mastiff lol QueenBuffy35px-Pink crown 18:41, May 6, 2013 (UTC)
Also, how do I block someone "infinite"? I always click on "another length if time" and write in "infinite" but it says "invalid time" or something. QueenBuffy35px-Pink crown 18:46, May 6, 2013 (UTC)
Weird... I always type "infinite" and the lockdown prodceeds. Have you tried with "indefinite"

I will try indefinite next time :) Thanks QueenBuffy35px-Pink crown 23:34, May 7, 2013 (UTC)


Would you try to add a "Northener" or "Northmen" article?--Gonzalo84 (talk) 21:41, May 7, 2013 (UTC)

Pixie Le Knot

Not entirely unprecedented: we've had a few edits to the actor articles that seemed to be made either by the actors or friends or family. As long as they do good edits, don't post anything dodgy and, if possible, source things, there's no problem.--Werthead (talk) 11:42, May 10, 2013 (UTC)

Grazdan mo Eraz

Not sure where to even begin on his page (what to say about him that is) but I uploaded his image for whoever makes it :)
Grazdan mo Eraz S3
QueenBuffy35px-Pink crown 04:19, May 13, 2013 (UTC)

Theon & Ramsay

In the books Ramsay has only recently been taken away from his existence as a peasant and made a member of House Bolton (only a year or so before AGoT), so this kind of power is still new to him, and Theon is certainly the first highborn person to come into his power. So I think it's basically that: a grubby worm (though intelligent) raised to high station who can get back at the world for the misfortunes of his early life, and the more powerful the person he can humiliate and break, the better.--Werthead (talk) 10:23, May 13, 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I suppose that's it. I mean the "highborn" ironbmen at Moat Cailin or the other Northerners at the siege like Rodrik? He was in a hurry so he couldn't take his sweet time (though I question why he wouldn't want to torture Rodrick...yeah maybe that was also a matter of being in a hurry). But yeah...Theon's only the first...I mean the stuff he does once Jeyne Poole is under his power (shudder).--The Dragon Demands (talk) 14:26, May 13, 2013 (UTC)

Comment on Scare Cr0w's talk page

It may be that I'm co​mpletely wrong and I've been missreading the books the whole time, but I'm fairly certain I'm right.  If not could to tell me where to find those parts? DRAEVAN13House-Targaryen-heraldry 19:09, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

(I was intentionally mixing small exaggerations in with the truth to yank his chain).--The Dragon Demands (talk) 08:18, May 23, 2013 (UTC)

Hey its Buffy

Hey, I cleared my cache, now I can't remember my password. Anyway, I am going to go to bed for the night, but here are a couple of pictures you guys can use. "Old Man" and "Mary Frey". ....well, never mind, it won't let me even upload the pictures without logging in.... QueenBuffy

nav boxes

Did you see my talk page about the nav boxes? QueenBuffy35px-Pink crown 03:01, June 4, 2013 (UTC)


Did you listen?!!! :D QueenBuffy35px-Pink crown 01:11, June 6, 2013 (UTC)

About to: I missed out on a week of editing, and I'm busy "collecting the heads of state".--The Dragon Demands (talk) 01:13, June 6, 2013 (UTC)
Love we can always count on you for that ;) QueenBuffy35px-Pink crown 01:14, June 6, 2013 (UTC) (I'm about to archive your crap for you if you don't... lol)
I was going to archive it after the last episode of Season 3 airs in four days; that way it neatly forms a "Season 3 archive".--The Dragon Demands (talk) 01:24, June 6, 2013 (UTC)
Ahhh, makes sense :) After you listen to the podcast, lets discuss. QueenBuffy35px-Pink crown 01:26, June 6, 2013 (UTC)

Jaime s1 pic

Do you know who/why Jaime's infobox image is reverted back to Season 1 Episode 1 of him, and not the most recent? QueenBuffy35px-Pink crown 15:40, June 6, 2013 (UTC)

Some new guy named "System2448" screwed with it, adding in an image of Season 1 which was also a "thumb" so it displayed improperly (then someone else tried to fix it by removing the house allegiance images). I reverted the second edit, to get the house allegiance images back, not realizing the error was with the first guy - should be fixed now.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 15:45, June 6, 2013 (UTC)
We don't need no System messing with zee'System!!! <-- my best Austin Powers bad-guy impression. And yes, it is fixed now... we all know we can't have my beloved Jaime's page a mess! lol QueenBuffy35px-Pink crown 15:55, June 6, 2013 (UTC)

Boltons as great house

At least wait until the show brings it up.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 15:43, June 6, 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I realize now. Things were hectic and confused the night of the episode, didn't realize they hadn't established that yet. Indeed, from trailer, I think the next episode picks up immediately after the last one, as we see Roose Bolton staring out over the burning Stark camp at the Twins.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 15:46, June 6, 2013 (UTC)


Sooo, you excited about tonight's finale!? After last week, I'm not sure what to expect! QueenBuffy35px-Pink crown 17:23, June 9, 2013 (UTC)

I'm excited because I know what happens in the book, but I'm not really sure where the cutoff point is going to be. Certain events which blatantly happened in the last 50 pages or so of the book certainly won't appear, but other major events might happen. Like, the Joffrey/Margaery wedding introduces many new characters such as Oberyn Martell, but they haven't even been cast yet (not too spoilery to say that the wedding is going to happen, they've been setting it up). So I don't know if they're going to have the Joffrey/Margaery wedding.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 17:26, June 9, 2013 (UTC)
Yeah I wasn't sure about that either... since Jaime is returning, and there will be a certain moment... in a certain "Sept".. lol. I'm not quite sure how this will play out. That's a lot to fill in one hour, but I suppose it could be done. QueenBuffy35px-Pink crown 17:30, June 9, 2013 (UTC)
One of the big shocks of the Red Wedding is that it really happens in the middle of the third book, maybe even a little before the middle; it isn't even at the part of the book you expect a climax like that. I think it may have been a mistake for the TV show to put it at episode 9, because something "big" always happens at the end of the season, in episode 9 (Ned's execution, Battle of the Blackwater). Though on the other hand they split book 3 across Season 3 and Season 4 (because it's the longest book), and this is preferable to cramming it all in one season, even though it means the Red Wedding ended up being used as the "season finale" of sorts (episode 10 is always an epilogue). But yeah, I thought they might do more of one storyline or another (pushing Daenerys and Jon Snow's entire storylines into season 4), but instead, it's been pretty even across all storylines so far: the Lannister, Targaryen, Baratheon, and Night's Watch storylines are all roughly in synch with the point they were at in the middle of the third book when the Red Wedding happened.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 17:37, June 9, 2013 (UTC)

Re: Guest Star

Hey, I know it is not a complete quote, but as I explained in a past edit summary, an extra piece of information has a comma before it, here is an example:

Eddard Stark to his bastard son.

There is how it should be....but to add a name is more information, that is sometimes not needed, so adding the name would be set like this:

Eddard Stark to his bastard son, Jon Snow.

Do you see what I mean? This is to clear up what edits I have done before, because some of it got removed. But about the period, I added a bit more information...and then added the period. - Liam "BanishU" Michaels (talk) 22:36, June 9, 2013 (UTC)

Sometimes who they say it to is inconsequential, though other times it does matter who they're talking to.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 22:40, June 9, 2013 (UTC)

Martell family tree

It had Arianne, Quentyn and Ellaria Sand on it despite not being yet established in TV canon. It was also a creation of CestWhat under the new sockpuppet: Martelling.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 04:26, June 11, 2013 (UTC)

I considered that we should lock the Family Tree templates so only Administrators can edit them. Then I decided no, because Cestwhat is stupid or obsessed enough to keep editing family tree templates, under each new username, even after I have expressly warned her that one of the primary reasons we keep figuring out it's her again is because she's almost the only non-Administrator who edits family tree templates. Thus they should remain unlocked, simply because it's a good way of detecting Cestwhat when she screws with them.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 04:34, June 11, 2013 (UTC)

Lock categories

What we should lock from anons its categories. The category vandal shows up twice a week, from a different IP address.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 21:55, June 11, 2013 (UTC)

I agree. This demonstrates the need to lock things. One bad anonymous user can, and has, ruined it for everyone else.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:51, June 14, 2013 (UTC)


What did he do?--Gonzalo84 (talk) 21:50, June 11, 2013 (UTC)

He inserted into Peter Dinklage's page [2] that Dinklage had just died in a car accident.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 21:53, June 11, 2013 (UTC)

How canon are actor and producer conversations?

I'm just wondering, because Iwan Rheon gave a nice interview about his development of Ramsay with D&D. Among the aspects of his character they discussed was the conception by rape, and the murder of Domeric. Should this information be taken as canon?--The-Boy 10:47, June 12, 2013 (UTC)

Things actors state in interviews are slightly below the aired episodes in terms of canon (i.e. if Finn Jones talked about Willas and Garlan, then an episode said he's the only Tyrell son, he would be mistaken). At least, such actor statements would go under the "Behind the Scenes" section, as anything an actor says is at least "relevant". In general, though, we wouldn't put information about Domeric in the main sections of articles; even if the actor mentions the murder, it hasn't happened in the show yet - however, it would go on his page under "behind the scenes" and later get "promoted" to the main canon section.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 23:58, June 12, 2013 (UTC)

Removing Barra and Mhaegen

Under that precedent, Gendry should also be removed.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 00:41, June 15, 2013 (UTC)

Gendry is important enough of a character to warrant mention, as it is a character guide as well as family guide. All of Robert's other bastard children, and Stannis' three stillborn sons, do not serve much function as independent entries in the family tree. I'll at least finish first so you can see what I'm trying to achieve.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 00:43, June 15, 2013 (UTC)

Other family trees

  • Martells: One with Doran, Oberyn, Elia (her children and Rhaegar) and Trystane.
  • Florents: lets wait until more members are revealed or mentioned. I guess we'll get a few more Florents in the future
  • Tarlys: They deserve one with Randyll, Melessa and Sam
  • Tarths: Likewise
  • Tyrells: Like you said: Margaery, then Loras, then Willas and then Garlan.
  • Freys: I guess in the following seasons we'll get more Freys and, hopefully, we'll get a viewers guide tree
  • Karstarks: Lets have one with only Torrhen and Harrion and update it if new Karstarks appear in the future.
  • Pooles: The Pooles deserve one
  • Marbrands: Addam "appeared" and Damon was mentioned, they deserve one as well.

--Gonzalo84 (talk) 00:57, June 15, 2013 (UTC)

The Baratheon one is proving to be tougher than I thought. As for the Freys, the current template is actually good enough to suffice until we get a new Viewer's Guide update.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 01:29, June 15, 2013 (UTC)
We should add, at least, Black Walder.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 02:14, June 15, 2013 (UTC)

Tyrell family tree

Could you restore Willas and Garlan?--Gonzalo84 (talk) 16:57, June 15, 2013 (UTC)

Cassel and Poole

Has Beth Cassel been established in any way in the show?. Also, I think that the wives shouldn't be referred to as "Lady Cassel" or "Lady Poole", since neither Cassels nor Pooles are "lords".--Gonzalo84 (talk) 07:49, June 15, 2013 (UTC)

Martin himself has acknowledged how vague and nonspecific his ranks and terminology of nobility are: everyone who isn't a king is called a "lord" instead of "Duke" or something. The problem is that every "highborn" gets called "lord" or "lady" by default, without being the actual "Lord" or "Lady" (capital L) of something. For example, Arya would be called "my lady" without actually being Lady of anything.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 08:24, June 15, 2013 (UTC)
Beth hasn't been established in the show yet, but as it's just a family tree and she's not that big of a character (as opposed to revealing who Ramsay Snow was in Season 2), I didn't think it would hurt anything.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:16, June 15, 2013 (UTC)

Joanna and Stafford Lannister tree

Nice job.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 07:50, June 15, 2013 (UTC)

Main Lannister tree

Adding Trystane is confusing. It might lead someone to think he's Myrcella's lover as Jaime and Cersei have the same type of line.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 17:38, June 15, 2013 (UTC)

In general, I thought we were using the dotted lines to represent "significant romantic pairing" that wasn't a marriage, i.e. Loras and Renly, and that this went up to and including betrothal. Myrcella and Trystane do seem to have a surprisingly good relationship, all things considered. I thought we'd use them for "betrothal" as well, particularly because I've encountered people who forgot that Myrcella got paired up with Trystane.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:15, June 15, 2013 (UTC)
The dotted line was used to refer to "sexual liaison" outside marriage. Under that precedent, Shae should also be in the Lannister tree, even more so than Trystane.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 19:54, June 21, 2013 (UTC)

The Pest

I think we should include Werthead on this. I have deleted EVERY contribution of the latest sockpuppet I detected but I agree its not enough.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 08:35, June 21, 2013 (UTC)

"From this moment on... There will be no further reprisals against civilians. This was stupid. Impotence. Comrades... If a fox stole your chickens... Would you slaughter your pig because he saw the fox? No. You would hunt the fox... You would find where it lives and destroy it! And how do we do this? Become a fox." --The Dragon Demands (talk) 13:23, June 21, 2013 (UTC)

Florent family tree

Do we know for certain Imry Florent is dead?. Also, you should add Stannis and Shireen to it.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 01:46, June 23, 2013 (UTC)

I'm not finished with it yet; it will be finished (and open to revision) when I openly post it in main articles (which will be in a few minutes). The show didn't establish that Imry is dead, but then again it only identified him as "Imry Florent" in the credits - I thought this was a good example of one of those moments where we use the books to fill in the gaps. Certainly, for a guy acting as Stannis' lieutenant at the Battle of the Blackwater, we never see him again in all of Season 3.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 01:49, June 23, 2013 (UTC)
Like the Greatjon. And Kevan Lannister. And Lancel. And.. you get the idea.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 06:16, June 27, 2013 (UTC)

The CestWhat Saga

If you've reported it to the relevant Wikia authorities, is there much more we can do?--Werthead (talk) 15:03, June 24, 2013 (UTC)

I'm inexperienced with this kind of thing, so I'm not sure if I indeed reported it to the correct authorities at Wikia: what I'm asking is if the complaint I filed was indeed sent to the proper section.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 15:05, June 24, 2013 (UTC)
Well, the b*tca is still prowling. I've just blocked her latest incarnation and deleted pretty much all edits.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 20:37, July 4, 2013 (UTC)
I'm going to move the Family Tree templates up from "Block new users" to "Block non-Administrators" -- how long does a member have to be on the site before they are no longer considered "new". According to her contributions page, she was able to edit House Templates locked with "Block New Users" after only four days of editing.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 22:53, July 4, 2013 (UTC)

Mdreyes1228 was blocked for spamming. I don't think it was the pest. The username doesn't fir the profile.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 01:17, July 5, 2013 (UTC)

CestWhat is out of control. I could only hope that this person seeks professional help in their real life. Talk about wasting your time trolling the Game of Thrones wiki lol QueenBuffy35px-Pink crown 01:19, July 5, 2013 (UTC)

The Mountain That Talks

The return of Ch'vyalthan?--Gonzalo84 (talk) 22:06, June 26, 2013 (UTC)

I doubt it; Ch'vyalthan was even worse than this, made even more ridiculous mistakes, had a different typing style, and would have been making far more edits.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 23:00, June 26, 2013 (UTC)

Massacre of the Stark household

Per the example set by the Red Wedding article, I think should we have one named "Massacre at the Red Keep", since ifs one of the events that plunges the realm into war. What do you think.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 19:23, June 27, 2013 (UTC)

War of the Five Kings template

I have created a War of the Five Kings template: Template:WarOfTheFiveKings. Be sure to take a look and improve it anyway you see fit. I also think we should find some kind of name of the raid of Amory Lorch against Yoren and the Watch recruits. The books make no mention on where it takes place.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 19:23, June 27, 2013 (UTC)

So it turns out that, according the books, the nameless holdfast is located in a town by the Gods Eye. What do you think of "Raid by the God's Eye"? --Gonzalo84 (talk) 20:23, June 27, 2013 (UTC)

"Plan R" and your blocks

Hi there. My name’s Brandon, and I’m a community manager here at Wikia. I wanted to let you know that I will be unblocking all of the accounts you have blocked with the reason "Proscription,” because your plan to block all users that don’t meet a certain editing threshold is 100% unacceptable. This is a massive over-reaction to one user, as is your entire Plan R thread. You cannot continue to block users for reasons like this.

Additionally, your comments saying “CHOKE ON YOUR OWN POISON” are highly inappropriate. Please refrain from saying that again.

I do recognize that this wiki is dealing with a problematic situation. Because of that, as an alternative to Plan R, I wanted to give you (and others who are reading this) some advice on how to move forward. First, when you’re dealing with a problem user who is making problematic edits with sockpuppets like this, there’s only three things you need to do: block, revert, and ignore. First, you block their account so they can’t keep using it. Second, you revert their edits. Third, you ignore them. Discussing problem users openly just gives them attention and tells them that they’re still relevant here. Something like your Plan R thread does that on an even larger scale.

Besides, by doing that, you’re letting one user dictate how an entire wiki operates. You are essentially saying that CestWhat has so much power (and that you have so little power) that they can sway you to perform surgery with a broadsword instead of a scalpel, and that they can sway you to run an entire wiki based on what they do. If you want to look at this situation in the context of winners and losers, then this makes CestWhat the winner and everyone else the losers. The wiki itself loses because you will be saying that you no longer want the wiki to grow, because sacrificing virtually all newer users is preferable to having to deal with 1 user.

On that note, there are far more effective things that we can do to help you with this. The most obvious is that we can help you with CheckUser searches to see if there are sockpuppets, and we can help you with blocking (such as range blocks, to block a lot of IPs in a specific range at once). We can also help you set up an abuse filter to catch problematic edits. For example, if CestWhat is generally adding the same information to templates and pages over and over again, then I believe we can set up filters that will trigger a block on an account every time they try to add that information. That would mean a few things: 1) you don’t need to protect the pages to the point where good users can’t edit them; 2) you don’t need to block virtually everybody; and 3) all you’ll need to do is revert the edit, because the block will have been made by the abuse filter.

If you are interested in these steps, please let me know either here or via Special:Contact and we can talk more. In the meantime, please remember that you can’t continue banning users like this. If you have any questions, please feel free to let me know. - Brandon Rhea@fandom(talk) 15:11, July 6, 2013 (UTC)

  • Just following up to say that all accounts blocked with the reason "Proscription" have now been unblocked. - Brandon Rhea@fandom(talk) 15:26, July 6, 2013 (UTC)

If you read the discussion in the forum, Gonzalo84 persuaded me that banning editors who do not meet a certain threshold is indeed impractical. No one was banned for having under one hundred edits. Ultimately I separated the forum post with subheaders to emphasize that "Plan R" now means "sweeping locks on templates and articles", but a proposed wide-ranging wave of bans was an entirely separate suggestion, which was ultimately not implemented. While I did read through the editors list and banned suspicious-looking editors, and just bluntly said "Proscription" as a reason, it was actually because I was suspicious of accounts made after March 2013 which could not be verified as previously existing on another wiki (i.e. if someone made barely five edits here but had a long history of editing on Wookiepedia, I didn't suspect anything). So this was really just a short round of bans of suspicious-looking new accounts which I suspected were sockpuppet accounts. I assure you, and please read the later part of that discussion, I never banned anyone for not meeting an edit threshold. It was a generalized threat to emphasize that we weren't screwing around, but I never seriously began to implement it.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 15:57, July 6, 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for clarifying that, but even those bans that you did make are not right. Plenty of people only edit on 1 wiki, because that's where their interest is. I was just talking to a user today who has over 1,000 edits on the Club Penguin Wiki, but has never edited on another wiki. Does that make them suspicion? I don't think it does. Some people just want to edit in one place, and that shouldn't draw suspicion to anyone.

Remember, one of the core concepts of a wiki community is Assume Good Faith. You shouldn't be assuming that someone is suspicious or bad until proven otherwise, it should be exactly the opposite: assume that someone is a great user who just wants to help out until proven otherwise. Using people who haven't done anything wrong as a way of telling CestWhat that you're serious is not fair to those users, and all it tells CestWhat is that they have a tremendous amount of power over you.

If you are interested in the abuse filter suggestion, please let me know and I'll get back to you later today. Thanks! - Brandon Rhea@fandom(talk) 16:06, July 6, 2013 (UTC)

"Some people just want to edit in one place, and that shouldn't draw suspicion to anyone." -- you misunderstand. What I meant was that logically, CestWhat has been making sockpuppets since being banned in March 2013. Thus, accounts created on here after March came under suspicion....but if I checked their global account and found out, "oh, they've made 1,000 edits on the Club Penguin Wiki and joined that in 2009", logically that couldn't be another sockpuppet. The ones that worried me were the ones that really didn't edit on any other wikis at all, and only joined the site recently. In some circumstances CestWhat has created a new sockpuppet account a matter of hours after getting the last one banned (also she has a certain naming style she sticks to).

Ignoring CestWhat only emboldened her in the past. When we tried to ignore the problem at let Wikia's vandalism taskforce handle it, CestWhat was smart enough not to simply vandalize articles...but to vandalize templates, which don't show up in edit lists, and to upload alternate versions of photos...which also don't show up on edit lists. This caused a massive amount of damage, drastically out of proportion to the fact that only one editor was doing it. She knows all the tricks. Ignoring is never an option. I do understand that the price of freedom is eternal vigilance, in which case we may just need to fall back on banning CestWhat when she shows up again.

That being said, I did receive an e-mail back from Wikia's anti-vandalism taskforce, and they do seem to have been banning some of CestWhat's sockpuppet accounts based on IP-range, but apparently not enough to stop new rounds of vandalism she's done - I don't know how IP range blocks work, this may be difficult, though I appreciate the blocks they've made so far.

Well, here's the e-mail I received:

Thank you for contacting Wikia. I've blocked two of the IP addresses used by this vandal, disabling all edits (logged-in and anonymous) from them. I have also disabled the majority of the vandal's accounts, and will be disabling the rest later today. If they manage to evade these bans, please let us know as soon as possible and we will look into further methods of prevention.
Daniel S.
Wikia Community Support

Even so, and this baffles me...why is CestWhat's global account not banned by now? She's made over thirty sockpuppets in the past three months and is actively disrupting vital areas such as templates and infobox photos. Why is she still actively editing on the Downton Abbey Wiki? We were told her global accounts would be banned.

CestWhat's continued editing on Downton Abbey Wiki, Clone High Wiki, and Vampire Diary Wiki (amongst others using her global account) are a mockery of the authority of the Wikia Community Support team.

(sigh) I apologize for the outburst of frustration (i.e. "choke on it CestWhat!" as a reason for banning her identified sockpuppet accounts)...but I hope you understand you're coming in halfway into the story. We've been harassed by thirty sockpuppets in the past three months...sometimes one every two or three days. I'm sorry to sound so critical about your advice on "Ignore" but we *did* try to ignore it for weeks...just ban her new account and move on....but it reached a point where ignoring the problem seemed to only make her grow more confident and brazen.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 16:14, July 6, 2013 (UTC)

  • "CheckUser searches to see if there are sockpuppets, and we can help you with blocking (such as range blocks, to block a lot of IPs in a specific range at once)."
  • "We can also help you set up an abuse filter to catch problematic edits. For example, if CestWhat is generally adding the same information to templates and pages over and over again, then I believe we can set up filters that will trigger a block on an account every time they try to add that information.
  • That would mean a few things: 1) you don’t need to protect the pages to the point where good users can’t edit them; 2) you don’t need to block virtually everybody; and 3) all you’ll need to do is revert the edit, because the block will have been made by the abuse filter.

Actually these sound like the kind of vital tools we were desperately hoping existed. Yes, learning how to use these would be a much preferable course of action. Also, I realize from your point that we may have blocked certain parts of the wiki in anticipation that CestWhat might try to vandalize it in the future...even though she might not be smart enough to work around us; i.e. we might have openly suggested vandalism methods she hadn't thought of. Sort of like the police chief who insists that metal grates be put on the air vents to prevent thieves from breaking into the bank...even though the thieves had only ever thought of charging in the front door with a gun, and thus the police inadvertently gave the thieves the idea to enter through air vents in the first place. Ack. So I'm going to delete that forum post lest it give too many ideas...--The Dragon Demands (talk) 16:20, July 6, 2013 (UTC)

Okay the new course of action is this:

  • We will continue our previous response of swiftly reacting to new sockpuppet accounts by CestWhat, and in particular, deleting and reverting any and all edits she makes to the wiki using these sockpuppets - even edits which are entirely positive or beneficial, in order to discourage her from returning.
    • Accordingly, certain pages which CestWhat was fixated on and continues to be fixated on, such as Septa Eglantine, will continue to be locked to prevent her continued vandalism. This isn't that much different from the standard response to constant vandalism on a page.
  • All family tree templates are locked and will remain locked. First, they were CestWhat's favorite target. Second...we really needed an open call for work on them in earlier seasons when they weren't very complete, but at this point after Season 3 is over, we've met most of the major noble Houses and their families. New family members will be introduced so rarely, relative to how sensitive and important the family tree templates are, that there is no real benefit to unlocking them (I spent the past month updating all of them to be accurate up to the end of season 3 anyway).
    • Similarly, we're going to need to waste time locking all of the family tree infobox pages for specific characters - these are separate pages and thus locking the main family tree page doesn't protect them.
    • We will also need to lock the images used in the family trees, because again it's a sensitive template will will rarely need to be changed, and because CestWhat has already trolled us by subtly reloading alternate versions of photos under the same name.

I locked down many of the major character pages for fear of vandalism, not necessarily by CestWhat but just to slam the breaks on things. I will lift many of these but others need to remain locked - for similar reasons to why we locked "Robb Stark" in the season leading up to the Red Wedding. Every troll in the universe wanted to spoil and vandalize about the Red Wedding; now that it has passed, they'll latch onto any other plot spoilers they can, purely because this is a popular TV show.

That about covers it.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 17:00, July 6, 2013 (UTC)

Just so we’re on the same page with something important here, I want to remind you that regardless of how many range blocks or account blocks you put up, it is impossible to completely ban someone from a website. Roadblocks can be thrown up, but that’s the most that can happen. If someone is determined to get back on a wiki, they will get back on a wiki.
I will be talking with my co-workers Rappy and Sactage on Monday. They’re part of our tech support team and will be able to help with abuse filters, as well as range blocks.
My recommendation for protection would be to try the limited protection option first. Rather than saying only admins can edit, this protection settings prevents new accounts from editing until a few days after they’ve registered on Wikia. A user could still edit if they wait a few days, but the amount of time could act to discourage them.
Beyond that, the last thing I would say about protection is this—reverting edits is really not that difficult. When you want to foster a community, what do you think is more beneficial: admins having to spend a few extra minutes reverting some edits, or preventing everyone except for a small group of people from editing? I’d go with the former any day of the week.
Lastly, I wanted to share a story about my own personal experiences. In addition to being Wikia Staff, I’ve been an admin and bureaucrat on Star Wars Fanon for the last 6 years. In 2009, I organized something called the mass deletion. It was an (admittedly silly and unnecessary) attempt to improve the quality of pages on Star Wars Fanon. There was one user who did not like it, and would go on to vandalize against me for years on end. He still occasionally does it. At first, it made me really upset. I reacted very similarly to the way you are with CestWhat. Eventually, I learned that it’s not as big a deal as I thought it was. I learned to not take it so seriously, and I could calmly deal with things as they needed to be dealt with—reverting and ignoring, and setting up abuse filters and such. I didn’t need to lock down large parts of the wiki to stop this user. Above all, the key thing that I needed to do was relax.
I hope you find that insight helpful. - Brandon Rhea@fandom(talk) 00:24, July 7, 2013 (UTC)

I understand that there is only so much that can be done.

We have been using limited protection for weeks now, and it has proven laughably useless. It only blocks "new" editors, which it turns out are only considered "new" for about three or four days. CestWhat has made almost twenty sockpuppet accounts in the past month or so and simply waited three days to start editing. It. Did. Not. Deter. Her.

There is good, and there is evil, and evil must be punished. Even in the face of Armageddon I shall not compromise in this.

(sigh) I understand your point and hope we can get some safeguards in place.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 02:59, July 7, 2013 (UTC)

Title blacklist

Hi Dragon. Regarding the whole CestWhat debacle: Another tool we have at our disposal is a thing called a "title blacklist". This is essentially a list of article titles that cannot be created, and is highly effective at combating trouble users (spoiler tolls in particular). We have recently implemented one on the True Blood Wiki with great success. If, like you say, CestWhat tries to create duplicate family tree templates we can simply take the template and blacklist it, preventing her from re-creating it. Yes, there are many variations she can use, but it will certainly deter her. This wiki needs a blacklist anyway; as the show progresses the trolls will become more and more determined to spoil key moments, so I've gone ahead and got the ball rolling. If any other titles occur to you that you think need protecting, simply add them to that list using the format presented, and the system will lock them down. Oh, and while we're on the subject, I agree with protecting the family tree templates from being edited by non-admins. There is really no need for regular users to edit them, and as they are clearly CestWhat's target of choice I think full protection for them is entirely justified.--The-Boy 10:19, July 7, 2013 (UTC)

These are good ideas; I'm sorry I've been very busy this week in real-life so I haven't been able to follow up on things.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 23:26, July 9, 2013 (UTC)

Tysha at the Lannister family tree

Per her marriage to Tyrion, both linked by a broken line.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 22:51, July 9, 2013 (UTC)

I self-consciously wanted to avoid including Tysha, in order to avoid spoilers. So far as the TV audience knows, she's just a random whore that he was in a relationship with for about two weeks. The broken lines are a grey area, but I do think generally should include "major relationships" that the TV-first fans should know about (Renly/Loras, or prominent betrothals such as Myrcella/Trystane). As far as the TV audience knows, Tysha is just a whore he fell in love with 13 years ago and hasn't had contact with since.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 23:28, July 9, 2013 (UTC)
Actually, as far as the tv viewers know, the two were married. The rest belongs in spoiler land--Gonzalo84 (talk) 07:21, July 10, 2013 (UTC)
Wait...the TV viewers would think it was a fake marriage because she didn't mean her vows when she said them.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 01:16, July 11, 2013 (UTC)

Osmund Kettleblack

Per Tywin's scene with Joffrey, and the wedding of Tyrion and Sansa, there are four Kingsguard in King's Landing:

  • Ser Meryn
  • Ser Boros
  • unnamed 1 ("Ser Preston")
  • unnamed 2 elevated post-Blackwater (Lets go with "Ser Balon" because its the simplest and predates Ser Osmund's naming in the books)

Plus one unnamed Kingsguard in Dorne with Myrcella ("Ser Arys)

Plus Jaime who has returned to King's Landing

that leaves one empty space that hasn't yet been filled by either named or unnamed character. So let's keep things the same for a while and wait for further castings before adding Ser Osmund.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 09:53, July 20, 2013 (UTC)

Category vandal

I think we should lock down ALL categories to registered users.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 23:55, July 20, 2013 (UTC)

Democracy's not for the people.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 01:20, July 21, 2013 (UTC)

Lords and Outlaws articles

We've got articles for smallfolk, knights, mercenaries, prostitutes, all we're lacking are articles for Lords and for Outlaws, would you try for one?.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 17:45, July 23, 2013 (UTC)

Yes, but I'm going to be mostly inactive for the next week or so while I work on my thesis (I do check in every day to catch some of the blatant vandalism, but not everything).--The Dragon Demands (talk) 20:42, July 23, 2013 (UTC)

The Pest is gone

I was gone for some days because I lost internet connection at my home for a whole week and then being kinda busy participating in the protests here in Lima. I just saw that the pest has been globally blocked from all Wikia. Let us toast.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 04:38, July 29, 2013 (UTC)

Eternal vigilance. That is not dead which can eternal lie, and with strange aeons even death may die.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 01:53, July 30, 2013 (UTC)

Glorious news!!! lol QueenBuffy35px-Pink crown 01:15, August 2, 2013 (UTC)

"Condensed" vs "Consolidated"

I'm new to this Wiki and don't know the proper way to bring this to someone's attention, so I'm doing it here; I apologize if this is not the proper procedure for doing so.

On the page "Characters Significantly Changed Between Books And TV Series" the word 'condensation' is used repeatedly; the word you want here is 'consolidation'. These characters are not condensed and made smaller -- they are multiple characters consolidated into one. Condensing implies abridgement, making something smaller; while consolidating implies combining, bringing multiple things together. Please correct this error at your earliest convenience. Thank you!

MirandaBear (talk) 00:56, July 31, 2013 (UTC)

Condensation is preferred because it's condensing part of the narrative from the books. "Matthos" is a combination of four of Davos' sons in the books, though this also "condenses" the story. That, and "consolidation" has an all too pleasant ring to it: "the room was filled with messy paperwork which we consolidated into one pile" sounds universally positive. If we used "consolidated" it would be implying that we agree with every choice they've made (which usually, we do). "Condensed" is more of a neutral value judgement.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 01:08, July 31, 2013 (UTC)

House Hoare sigil

Its done, my dragon friend. --Gonzalo84 (talk) 23:39, August 6, 2013 (UTC)

Re: Michelle Fairley

Alright listen dude, there's no need to be that rude over one comment. I assumed that entire conversation was a sarcastic back and fourth to justify leaving Michelle Fairley's status in the show as ambiguous to avoid revealing why she'll reprise her role and spoiling future events so I came up with dumb reasons that would explain why she'd re-appear in the show without actually giving away what really happens in the books. And yes, Arya does see Catelyn's  corpse in her warg dreams through Nymeria.  Anyways, all that aside you were unjustifiably rude over such a minor comment and clearly you didn't get the sarcasm in it. But even if I wasn't being sarcastic you blew it way out of proportion so I just thought I'd let you know so you don't get your jimmies rustled over practically nothing next time. M4ND0N (talk) 03:33, August 9, 2013 (UTC)

...I am utterly, fall-down-on-my-face, surprised that you were being sarcastic. I had no idea...I posted a harsh rebuke in response because I took what you were saying at face value. I utterly failed to realize you were being sarcastic. Now I see what you did there. You were so subtle about it that I didn't understand. I am very sorry...I can only, very ashamed, hope that you can understand (though not condone) that at the time, in my misconception, taking what you said at face value sounded really absurd, which resulted in my response. This was a massive blunder on my part.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 03:50, August 9, 2013 (UTC)

Homosexuality Article?

What would you think about a having an article on homosexuality?  We already have articles on other social taboos and mores, such as incest, regicide, kinslaying, and the guest right.  Thanks.  TheUnknown285 (talk) 03:05, August 11, 2013 (UTC)

Do you think I have been idle? I'm allegedly on a wiki-break due to thesis work. I have been planning such "Culture" articles for some time - particularly that one, and rough drafts exist. But that's an important one so it has been cooking for a while. I'm not just sitting around thinking of improvements to make; we're overburdened with quite a backlog. On the To Do list.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 03:45, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
Homosexuality is a practice, like religious customs or feudalism. It is not really a social violation like incest or kinslaying. We made those some weeks ago because they are important. The Bastard of Bolton added in Regicide recently given that its similar to kinslaying. But I'm writing an article on "Homosexuality" in the same sense that I'm writing an article on "Heraldry".--The Dragon Demands (talk) 03:53, August 11, 2013 (UTC)


I'm afraid I have no idea what the Twitter password is. Someone else set it up and used it and never gave me the details.--Werthead (talk) 10:40, August 12, 2013 (UTC)

Greater Good for admin

Here is the vote: Forum:Greater good for Admin -- --Gonzalo84 (talk) 17:12, August 16, 2013 (UTC)

Language map

Ghiscari is specifically mentioned as being a language in the closing seconds of Mhysa, so it's fair game for its own article. As for the map, Astapor and Yunkai (and presumably Meereen) are still Ghiscari-descended cities, as they still have the harpy sigil, and the slaves speaking Ghiscari (or at least bits of it) suggests the link is still there. It is clear, and should be noted in the articles, that Ghiscari does not seem to be a separate, active and modern language as it is in the books though.--Werthead (talk) 16:10, August 18, 2013 (UTC)

Okay then.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 16:13, August 18, 2013 (UTC)

Purple Wedding?

Is that by any chance the second major wedding in Storm of Swords? If it is, I didn't realise it was called that, though I can see why. DRAEVAN13House-Targaryen-heraldry 19:08, August 19, 2013 (UTC)

well, don't take my word. It's a fan-nickname, but even A Wiki of Ice and Fire calls it that.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 19:10, August 19, 2013 (UTC)

Title blacklist

Don't forget that we have a Title Blacklist to prevent users from creating certain spoilery articles.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 20:19, August 19, 2013 (UTC)

Tommen Recast

I'm keeping an eye on it. However, don't change anything until we have official confirmation from HBO.--Werthead (talk) 07:33, August 20, 2013 (UTC)

House Affiliation

Martell :) Unless they screw them up on the show. --Werthead (talk) 09:18, August 22, 2013 (UTC)

Blog with massive spoilers!

User Tezinkendrick just posted a blog which contains many character deaths for season 4 and beyond, just thought you should know. DRAEVAN13 13:20, August 24, 2013 (UTC)

Well that was swift and decisive. :P DRAEVAN13 18:04, August 24, 2013 (UTC)

The Law should be swift and decisive.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:07, August 24, 2013 (UTC)

Cargo Cult

I just thought of something that might fit on that page of yours: Why in the show is Shae portrayed as actually caring for Sansa and, worst of all, even showing a bit of love for Tyrion? As you've also read the books, you know not only is this false, but this is going to make no sense when Shae... does what she does... at the end of book 3. It'll contradict her character from previous seasons. DRAEVAN13House-Targaryen-heraldry 21:57, August 22, 2013 (UTC)

Okay, I put it in - though on the "characters significantly changed" page I've got quotes from GRRM himself which admit that TV-Shae is just fundamentally a different character from Book-Shae...though the real question is "how do we make this fit with her actions at the end of book 3?"

Second, we aren't really going to get blood from a stone. That is, questions about "Making Robb's marriage change from a question of "putting Honor before Reason" to "putting Love before Reason" fundamentally changes the whole dynamic" -- they've just decided that his flaw was Love instead of Honor, and we can't change their alterations at this point.

What we can ask about Talisa are "fact-based" questions - sort of like your point about Shae - we're not upset that they add in some love interest, but that it directly affects Shae's motivations later on -- by the same logic, Tywin showing genuine fatherly love for Tyrion at some point (which he doesn't, really) would be flat out incongruent.

But the fact-based questions we CAN ask about Talisa are things like "why did you make her a Volantene even though Volantenes look Valyrian like Daenerys? Why not Myrish?" or "did you even bother considering what impact making her name "Maegyr" is?" -- calling her Maegyr because she's Volantene is like calling an American character "Obama" - what, you mean THE Obama family? (sigh) from what I can discern, they simply did not think some of the changes out too well. But that is what my rant-filled "Characters Significantly changed" page is for.

And to be honest, the changes fall into neat categories: Osha and Shae are significantly "different", but Osha is more interesting now. She as a love interest is the only weird thing. Qarth was poorly done but it was a weak part of the books anyway, and moreover, Qarth is done with in Season 3 anyway so we can move past it. I don't lose sleep over that. But the Catelyn-Robb-Talisa dynamic is one....interconnected problem, you see. They removed Catelyn's political agency and gave it to Robb, and then RARELY admitted Robb isn't a good politician at all -- well at least "Kissed by Fire" had the Karstark mess relatively intact, and we do have Robb at least finally admit at the beginning of "The Rains of Castamere" that he has indeed made disastrous political mistakes and should have listened to Catelyn more.

So yeah, the only particular continuing problems are that TV-Shae seems to actually love Tyrion, and the MASSIVE change to the "main Stark plotline" of Catelyn-Robb-Talisa. At least its in the past. --The Dragon Demands (talk) 22:10, August 22, 2013 (UTC)

I'm predicting the producers are going to have to invent a reason as to why she'll do does what she does next season. As it stands now and her love of Tyrion, it would contradict how she acts in the previous seasons. DRAEVAN13House-Targaryen-heraldry 22:31, August 22, 2013 (UTC)

Something else I just thought of: in the books, Vargo Hoat cuts of Jaime's hand because, since he betrayed Tywin and went over to the Northerners, he wanted to weaken the Lannisters while hoping to collect on Rickard Karstark's offer of his maiden daughter's hand and seat at Karhold. In the show, since Locke isn't a sellsword who betrayed Tywin, he just cut off Jaime's hand to be a dick. DRAEVAN13 13:59, August 23, 2013 (UTC)

Well that's not really a "question" for them; it was part of omitting the whole Brave Companions arc, or rather, heavily condensing it. I do like to nudge it back in the right direction by pointing out that part of the reason "Locke" did it at that point in time was because he was fed up with Jaime trying to bribe him with an offer of a reward from his father Tywin, so the general idea of "no, we're sending a message we won't deal with Tywin" is still kind of in there....but yeah, condensed in adaptation.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:23, August 23, 2013 (UTC)
Well, regarding Shae, the writers are already planting seeds with her jealousy over Sansa and Tyrion's marriage.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 07:58, August 24, 2013 (UTC)
Really? That's the reason they're going to give for Shae's actions at the end of Storm of Swords? Oh, lordy, lordy, that's going to be painful to watch... DRAEVAN13 13:15, August 24, 2013 (UTC)
Another thought just sprang to mind for the Cargo Cult: Theon's regard for Eddard Stark. In the show, he's shown to think of him as a father (in his dialogue to Ramsay). In the books, he not only does not love him, but in fact has a deep contempt and even hatred for him, as he recognises that he was just a hostage to be killed at the first sign of Balon causing trouble. I wonder why they made that change. Maybe to make him seem less of a dick and/or make us take pity when Ramsay starts a-flaying? If so, mission failure, for me at least. DRAEVAN13 21:08, August 27, 2013 (UTC)
I'm not entirely sure they actually changed that, from Theon's POV. I mean there's points when Theon curses the Starks (as in Season 2) but because he's angry about the situation in general and he's just lashing out.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 21:41, August 27, 2013 (UTC)
There's also the part in the books where he says that he got more affection from Dagmer than his father and Eddard combined. DRAEVAN13 23:28, August 27, 2013 (UTC)


I'm surprised you didn't block him out right.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 19:13, September 1, 2013 (UTC)

I could have, but I enjoyed giving him the opportunity to humiliate himself - outright claiming that fanfiction should be allowed on this wiki? That Administrators have no right to say what should or should not be deleted? He was making a fool of himself. It amused me.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 01:59, September 2, 2013 (UTC)
You sound like Roose Bolton... the novels Roose Bolton.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 18:00, September 3, 2013 (UTC)
I prefer the comparison to earlier Targaryen Kings.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 14:11, September 4, 2013 (UTC)

Monotheistic R'hllor?

I was just looking at the R'hllor page when I saw the religion is listed as monotheistic, i.e one God. I'm not sure if it's been mentioned in the show or not, but in the books Melisandre often mentions the Great Other, God of Death, Darkness and Cold who is the opposing force of R'hllor. Wouldn't that make his religion polytheistic? DRAEVAN13 20:21, September 4, 2013 (UTC)

A question I've often asked myself, because while "Dualistic" might serve better, at times Melisandre also insists that "R'hllor is the One True God" etc. The Great Other is like their Satan figure. I mean going back to Manichaeism, Gnosticism, Catharism, etc. - were those "monotheistic" religions? Basically we should categorize it as "whatever Zoroastrianism is" - with its battle between Ahura Mazda and Ahriman.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 20:53, September 4, 2013 (UTC)
While Satan is a fallen angel who was created by God, it isn't specified if the Great Other is a similar creation turned against his creator or an opposing God. Hopefully GRRM will specify. DRAEVAN13 21:54, September 4, 2013 (UTC)

Mistake on Robb Stark's page.

I noticed the page is locked, so just a heads-up, there's an error in the "Behind the Scenes" section. The sentence reads: "On the Season 1 Blu-ray, Robb narratesComplete Guide to Westeros". DRAEVAN13 20:23, September 12, 2013 (UTC)

House Royce family tree

Could you update it per Yohn Royce being confirmed as a new character?--Gonzalo84 (talk) 04:09, September 14, 2013 (UTC)

Mya and Edric

Mya wasn't exactly acknowledged, she ignores who was her father, unlike Edric. That being said, even if Cersei wanted both of them killed they were both beyond her reach.

"Princesses" Sansa and Arya

I noticed on the Season 4 page that Sansa and Arya are listed as "Princess". Should they still be called such, since the Kingdom of the North and the Riverlands is no more? DRAEVAN13 22:25, September 17, 2013 (UTC)

...Technically they shouldn't, given that we won't be calling Bran the new King in the North. But, on the other hand, did Daenerys stop being a "Princess" just because her father wasn't king anymore? (given that he came down with a bad case of sword through the throat). So modelling after Daenerys, we might as well keep them in the list - it's not as if we ever prominently referred to them as "Princesses" anyway - as I explained in their "In the books" sections, due to Arya hiding her identity, and Sansa being a captive of the Lannisters who don't recognize Northern independence. So they might as well stay in the list. I also wouldn't remove Bran and Rickon from "Prince" status. --The Dragon Demands (talk) 22:56, September 17, 2013 (UTC)

Hi! I won't be editing much at all, just stumbled upon this Wiki and had a nose :) I left a note under the Community section as I'd read a few discussions regarding members who had/ were being a nuisance, and wanted to check that the editing I had done was ok :) lol... is it ok? Best to check :)

DragonPrincess124 (talk) 15:53, September 22, 2013 (UTC)

Hi there,

I am working on the Parent Filter program for Wikia. I saw on QueenBuffy's talk page that you had a lot of specific ideas about what makes Game of Thrones not so suitable for children. Would you be willing to add those to the Parent Filter page that QueenBuffy created for the wiki?  Right now, the page has general content labels, but I think the specifics you used in your description would be very informative for parents searching for whether or not the show is OK for their kids. I'm thinking especially of parents of teenagers, who may in fact be mature enough to handle some of that more graphic sexual and violent content (but only the parents know for sure, and if they haven't watched the show themselves, they could benefit from your in-depth knowledge and the examples you mentioned). What do you think?

Generaltsao @@fandom  (profile)•(talk)•(email) 20:29, September 25, 2013 (UTC)

Culture & Society articles

You've done a great job in these. However I think you should be careful with the "real life" sections, some of which read like blog personal articles and not encyclopedic information. Keeping this in mind, I believe they should be streamlined a little bit, to also make for a more dynamic, faster reading.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 03:48, September 26, 2013 (UTC)

Which ones need refining?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 14:11, September 26, 2013 (UTC)
Prostitution, Dwarfism.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 15:48, September 26, 2013 (UTC)
Well, now that you've warned me, remove the parts that you think don't belong, and then we'll discuss what might be worth keeping -- it is difficult to decide as an abstraction, but treating the article itself as our "sandbox" will help us work this out.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 15:53, September 26, 2013 (UTC)

Parent Filter

Hi Dragon! Hope this finds you well. I had a favor to ask you. If you look on my talk page you'll see another staff member suggesting that we add what you said to the Parental Filter page. All the links can be found in the message over there, if you can take a quick look and perhaps fix up the page a bit with more information. Also if you want to copy and paste this reply in my messages, that will be alright as well. Thanks! QueenBuffy35px-Pink crown 18:41, September 26, 2013 (UTC)

Jalabhar Xho?

What do you think?[3] --Gonzalo84 (talk) 16:30, October 1, 2013 (UTC)

I had a similar thought, however, he doesn't have any feathers - I doubt the cape of feathers would be in the TV show but they'd at least have a few feathers in his broach as an homage to this. Moreover there have actually been black people in crowd shots of King's Landing before, apparently just foreign traders meant to be in the background of a port city. I suspected that the black woman in the background of Littlefinger's brothel in Season 1 was a reference to Alayaya, but it wasn't enough to justify an article. So I wouldn't make an article on Xho or anything, though I do hope that it is later announced to be him.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 17:47, October 1, 2013 (UTC)

Season 2 or 3?

I have just uploaded this image but I'm not sure if its from season 2 or 3: [4]

What do you think?--Gonzalo84 (talk) 01:08, October 4, 2013 (UTC)

Crud, I'd have to check through a lot of episodes to figure that out based on her costume alone.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 04:42, October 4, 2013 (UTC)

Page protection

Hi, I was wondering why so many pages are locked? Ned Stark, Roose Bolton, Littlefinger etc. I wrote about it on Ned Stark talk page and asked someone to do the edits for me but there was no reply. So please, if you protect pages from common users, could you at least respond to editing requests? --Martell (talk) 14:49, October 29, 2013 (UTC)

Pages were locked after the rampant troll editing attacks during and after Season 3. Yes, these will be lifted and moderated for some of them, but it means locking down many template pages as well; the process of "restarting" everything will require major attention but I've barely been able to edit at all due to work on my thesis lately. Is there a specific page you'd like to work on right now?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 16:08, October 29, 2013 (UTC)

Spoiler Casting

I think we need to just add the actress with no role listed until her character appears in Season 4. There is literally no way of handling this in a non-spoilery way, so we can only hold back on the info.--Werthead (talk) 15:35, November 14, 2013 (UTC)

Missandei scene

Do you have a link to those pictures.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 16:52, November 15, 2013 (UTC)

I'm not a smut peddler, and this is a place of business. They're on some Russian fansites.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 17:43, November 15, 2013 (UTC)

Ok, I see what you're saying, but it's still a huge spoiler. It's telling people who are reading about the first episode that Cersei has never born a child by Robert. That's one of the biggest secrets of the first book!


Hi there,

I am Andykatib and I'm still quite new around here. Thankyou for welcoming me to the Game of Thrones Wikia. I just have a few questions. For this Wikia, do we write in the past or present tense? Back in Wookieepedia, we have to write in the past tense. What is the preferred standard here? On another subject, I'm interested in updating the Season 3 section of the Margaery Tyrell but it is currently protected. When would you be able to lift the protection? Let me know of areas in the Wikia which are in need of attention. We're heading into the summer holidays in New Zealand and I'll be happy to help. Cheers. Andykatib 09:02, 26th November 2013 (UTC)

...actually we have a lot of problems with tenses. Uh, try to use past tense. Try to match a pre-existing paragraph you're editing, and if writing new material, don't worry about it if it impedes your work. Yeah we need to unlock a lot of pages.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 14:57, November 26, 2013 (UTC)
I unlocked all of the pages (except four or five which are very spoilery) good to see your contributions to the Margaery Tyrell page.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 22:43, November 26, 2013 (UTC)
...Thanks very much. I'll take onboard your recommendations about the tenses as well. Cheers. Andykatib| 23:12, November 26, 2013 (UTC)

Re: Hello

No problemo. If you need help with the templates, let me know. :) Nazul Rostello (talk) 21:44, November 27, 2013 (UTC)

Latest Voting

I've been going back through your history, the past 3-4 months and only two main issues have come to my attention. I'm not sure why the latest complaints have been brought to me, but I had to consider them with the past couple of years incidences as well. You have gotten better with the brashness and lashing out at people, so perhaps I could take the voting down and if you can continue to be friendly to users, than that will be the end of it. :) QueenBuffy35px-Pink crown 23:06, November 27, 2013 (UTC)


How was Ireland? That is one place I want to visit so bad. My ancestors came to America from Donegal. QueenBuffy35px-Pink crown 20:46, December 3, 2013 (UTC)

Well it was more work than "vacation" I was presenting a paper - so I didn't see much outside of the university. The one big thing I walked away with is that the terminology of "Feudalism" which AWOIAF used (and which I copied) is drastically out of date.

Well, basically, after the viking invasions Ireland was "the Five Kingdoms" - Ulster to the north, Connaught to the west, Leinster to the southeast, Munster to the southwest, and Meath in the middle of the east coast (wedged between Ulster and Leinster on the coastal plain; basically where Dublin is now).

When the vikings invaded they set up five major port towns which, over the generations and with shifting alliances, became major independent ports for Ireland as a whole, linking it to the North Sea trading network. These were Dublin, Waterford, Wexford, Cork, and Limerick.

The problem is that when we say "king" it was more of a series of shifting alliances - each sub-vassal of the "King of Leinster" liked to say he was "King of Ui Chennelsaig", even though that's just southern Leinster. There was an "over-king" of all Ireland in theory but it was more of a hegemony over the other kingdoms, not an official hierarchy.

Meanwhile, from 1016 to 1160ish (after the viking invasions) the constituent sub-kingdoms of these "Five Kingdoms" started drifting apart. It's hard to say they were "independent" because they were always loose alliances to begin with. "Semi-independent" might fit.

Case in point, the Kingdom of Ossraige was on the border between Munster and Leinster, and it sort of played both sides against each other to become functionally semi-independent....allying with one or the other as it suited them. Meanwhile, the northeastern part of Connaught also became semi-independent, the Kingdom of Briefne.

The Kingdom of Munster, meanwhile, completely broke into two separate pieces, neither of which retained the original name: the larger portion south of the River Shannon was "Desmond" (literally "south-Munster", des-mund), and the part north of the Shannon yet south of Connaught was "Thomond" ("north-Munster").

The biggest breakup happened in Ulster though, to the north: it sort of ceased to exist as a unified kingdom but split into four pieces. Going from east to west, these were Oriel, Uliadh (where Belfast is), Tyr Owen (one of the most powerful of all kingdoms), and in the west, Tyr Connell.

"Tyr Owen" over the centuries became "County Tyrone", you see. And "Tyr Connell" became "County Donegal".

The breakup of Ulster affects Game of Thrones because of course, it films in Northern Ireland. Donegal is still part of the Republic of Ireland so they don't film there. But really, check out this filming map:

If you draw a diagonal line running northwest to southeast across Lough Neagh, that's sort of the border of virtually all of the TV series' Ireland scenes are filmed there, hardly any in the other sub-kingdoms of Oriel and Tyr Owen (which are also in Northern Ireland).

So when the English came in 1169, the political situation was basically:

  • Connaught
    • Breifne
  • Thomond
    • City of Limerick
  • Desmond
    • City of Cork
    • Ossraige
  • Leinster
    • City of Waterford
    • City of Wexford
  • Meath
    • City of Dublin
  • Oriel
  • Ulaidh
  • Tyr Owen
  • Tyr Connell

(note that there are variant spellings for all of these depending on who you ask, as they are Anglo-Norman-ified spellings of original Irish names, i.e. "Oriel" is alternatively "Airgialla" - my preferences are based on 1 - what is easy to remember, 2 - what fits onto a map easily ("Oriel" fits in its space better), and 3 - orthography I like - basically, the Insular Irish "g" used in medieval manuscripts is unique to Ireland, so I prefer "Connaught" over "Connacht" so I can use a "g" (it's that old-timey open-headed g). Funny story, actually: all of the missionaries went to Ireland just at the cusp of Rome's fall, and the result was that when the Irish learned to write in Latin, they learned the very sophisticated handwriting of the well-educated missionaries. Open-headed "g" was a sign of extreme sophistication...which became lost in the rest of continental Europe. Merovingian miniscule is practically unreadable, "the meanderings of a demented spider" - which is why Carolingian Miniscule had to be invented to fix it in the 700s. But the knowledge of literate culture survived out in Ireland while it largely died in the core areas of France, Germany, Italy....sort of like Isaac Asimov's "Foundation" Trilogy, in which this tiny planet at the edge of the galaxy survives the collapse of the Galactic Empire and is the only surviving planet that understands how advanced technologies like fusion drive work). So "Irish g" = sophistication.

To make a long story short (a phrase whose origins are long and rambling), when the English "invaded" in 1169 it was purely an opportunistic grab, and they were always invited in as mercenaries in civil wars. They got mixed up in Irish politics, and only 50 years later did they really start trying to conquer stuff.

They conquered the coastal plains of Leinster, eastern Meath and Dublin, etc., but really...these were Ireland's version of the Riverlands - everyone had conquered them at one time or another. Desmond and Thomond lost some territory to the east but not their core territories. Connaught held out for a very long time. Tyr Owen put up so much trouble that the English - while present in Ulaidh - had difficulty expanding west of Lough Neagh - Tyr Connell aka Donegal was conveniently located behind the strong kingdom of Tyr Owen, so they didn't get attacked.

Yes, the English did gradually expand over much of Ireland during the 1200s, so that by 1300 they controlled most of it. But then it all fell apart.

The basic reasons for which are easy to see if you sit down and examine it:

1 - The local English lords in Ireland were constantly fighting each other in petty wars, and were always rebelling against the King of England - the entire reason they came to Ireland was to carve out kingdoms of their own, not submit to King John.

2 - Robert the Bruce of Scotland (after William Wallace, Battle of Bannockburn, and all of that) invaded Ireland in the early 1300s. He was eventually defeated and died, yes, but it was very costly to stop him, and his invasion severely weakened the English in the long run.

3 - When the Black Death hit Europe in 1348, it hit the cities and towns the hardest (greater concentration of people). When the English came to Ireland, they mocked them by saying that the English were more "sophisticated" for already having a market-town based feudal economy, while the Irish were largely pastoral (cattle farming was the biggest agricultural activity, not grain crop growing). So guess what? The English controlled all of the major towns and were thus concentrated in the major towns -- so the Black Death hit them far worse than it ever did the diffuse Irish settlements.

Thus by the late 1300s, the English in Ireland were reeling from civil wars, Robert the Bruce's invasion, and the Black Death (which affected them far more than it did the Irish). Moreover, the Irish slowly adapted to the situation and stopped trying to outright push the English out immediately, but harassed their supply lines and burned out their crops (how the Rhoynar got the Targaryens to leave Dorne, old trick found the world over, really). Then, you've got the Hundred Years War starting up, this life-or-death struggle in continental France, so Ireland was being ignored by the English who did not send any further troops to help.

So by 1400 or so...the English had been pushed all the way back to basically just Dublin and a bit of the surrounding area. Ireland sort of won the first invasion. The REAL "invasion of Ireland" happened later, under Henry VIII - the Tudor Invasion of the early 1500s. But the 1400s are officially known as the Gaelic Renaissance - Ireland bounced back from the earlier invasions, mostly kicked out the English.

For the purposes of the TV show, though, Game of Thrones mostly films in Uliadh, and that was only one piece of a wider game board. Very few castles or structures survive from that long ago, of course - a lot of the "castles" you see in the TV show (the real ones) are from the Early Modern era, I mean English Civil War mid-1600s or later.

So the conference was nice. Several papers were on the Ulster Cycle literary saga (which I'm actually not familiar with) - I was looking at administration stuff; a couple of papers weren't on Ireland itself. On the whole I met some professors who wrote my textbooks and was pretty excited about that. I wish I knew more, but my area of focus is France, not Ireland, but I took a course in which I ended up examining the invasion of Ireland.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 20:27, December 5, 2013 (UTC)

So interesting! You are so damn smart! Seriously! Funny you mentioned Robert the Bruce. A few years ago we traced our family ancestry and it went all the way to him. His bastard child was my ancestor. Pretty interesting hey? QueenBuffy35px-Pink crown 22:00, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
Hey, if I were smart I wouldn't be stuck as an eternal graduate student. I don't know that much about Robert the Bruce and Scotland stuff; there is "much and more" to know and I don't want to give the impression that I'm actually "good" at this.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 23:06, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
Psh, trust me, you ARE smart! :) QueenBuffy35px-Pink crown 01:17, December 6, 2013 (UTC)

Headline links

No, basically :) --Werthead (talk) 10:05, December 5, 2013 (UTC)

Fluid Layout

The fluid layout changes have happened automatically - and seem to be pretty good - but we have a problem on 1920x1080 screens: the background image (the Season 3 faces) disappear behind the text wall. I think we need to reinstate the old image we had (with two rows on each side) to make it work again.--Werthead (talk) 10:13, December 5, 2013 (UTC)

I changed the settings to make the images snap to the sides of the screen. That look okay to you? --Werthead (talk) 10:16, December 5, 2013 (UTC)
Strange, I don't see any changes at all :/ But if you said the background is fixed, I believe you :) Also, when Season 4 gets closer, and new promos come out, I'm sure we'll update the background and what not. I like how Wikia's top menu bar with the snowflakes, matches are Wiki so well :) QueenBuffy35px-Pink crown 15:10, December 5, 2013 (UTC)


Yay, the voting has ended and you get to retain your admin rights :) You do such great work and you know all us fellow admins appreciate it! QueenBuffy35px-Pink crown 05:51, December 12, 2013 (UTC)


Really?! Yeah that seems too much of a coincidence. All the vandalism is coming from the Netherlands? Yeah, sounds like the same guy to me. QueenBuffy35px-Pink crown 23:28, December 13, 2013 (UTC)

Slightly miffed users leaving you messages

So, I can only assume there's a story behind why those two colourful characters were insulting you a few minutes ago? DRAEVAN13 23:58, December 15, 2013 (UTC)

I've never met them, I have no idea. But I banned them not only for comments on this talk page but when they made a derogatory page about me, which I deleted: --The Dragon Demands (talk) 00:24, December 16, 2013 (UTC)

Keep an eye out

So I was checking the edits of this user after seeing some odd blog from him. I noticed he was adding images to articles that had no business being there. Anyway, I blocked him for 3 days; maybe he can keep browsing here and learn more of how to edit. If not and you see him continuing this activity, you may want to block him again. We can teach him only so much before realizing he may just be adding these things on purpose. QueenBuffy35px-Pink crown 21:52, December 16, 2013 (UTC)

Katie, WalkingDead, and Pit

It seems the recent attacks against you may have been the result of Pit's block. One of the admins at Walking Dead wiki is asking me why was he banned. I've checked Pit's talk page and the reasons are not quite clear to me.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 23:18, December 16, 2013 (UTC)

I banned Pit back in June for sassing an Admin when I corrected him. Given that tempers were short at the time I perma-banned him but, as in recent discussions with me over this and the recent poll, it should have been a temp ban. He didn't do anything particularly outlandish.
The irony is, that had he come on here and asked politely, I would not have opposed unbanning him. In fact, given that he cannot speak for his two friends who came on here, he can still get it back if he asks nicely.
However, as you can see in the deletion log on December 15th, Katie and WalkingDead didn't come on here and ask politely, they made inflamatory vulgarity which I shall not repeat. Katie said this vulgarity on my talk page here: [5], as did WalkingDead: [6] ...yeah, the sexular/vulgar slurs are where I draw the line.
But what's baffling is that I've never even spoken to these people....and their friend Pit was banned six months ago. Doesn't it strike anyone as odd that they showed up a matter of days after I survived a poll about my Admin rights? If they had a problem over this banning, why didn't they mention this at any point in the past six months?
In conclusion, I'd unban Pit if he wants to and promises to behave politely. Frankly, I'd even unban Katie and WalkingDead (or rather, change it to a temporary one week ban) on two conditions:
One - if they'd simply apologize for the vulgarity and promise not to lash out in that manner again.
Two - If they explain why they only reacted to Pit's banning a full six months after it happened. Why now? How did this specifically come to your attention? Was Pit simply talking about it in the Walking Dead chatroom or did anyone else bring it to your attention?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 02:03, December 18, 2013 (UTC)
Indeed, I talked with Rick123Axel. He reached out to me because there was some worry over at WalkingDead Wiki that I might do a retaliatory attack against their community because I also contribute there. Personally, I believe that Pit could be unbanned, but keep Katie and WalkingDead banned for a longer time... their behavior was unnacceptable.
If you approve I can reach out to Rick123Axel over WalkingDeadWiki with our "terms":
    • 1. Pit12 will be unblocked, with your explaining to him that it was an extreme measure brought about by his "sass" and tempers running hot at the time.
    • 2. WalkingDead and Katie MUST apologize and explain their behavior in their respective talk pages, but will remain banned for 1 month.

--Gonzalo84 (talk) 17:28, December 18, 2013 (UTC)

Hi guys, if you don't mind, I'd like to interject a few of my thoughts here. I agree with everything going on, however, after reading WalkingDead and Katie's comments to our Admin TDD, I say they should be blocked at LEAST over a year. Their comments were downright rude, derogatory and demeaning. Name calling to such a degree shows lack of maturity and is prone to only create drama. There is NO place for that on this Wiki or Wikia itself. It reminds me of LovelyChry's behavior, and we all know how that turned out...nightmarish! So, take my input for what it's worth. :) QueenBuffy35px-Pink crown 17:51, December 18, 2013 (UTC)
Frankly I could have handled the vulgar language - but while I am not gay, I still find it stunningly offensive when people use "gay" as a derogatory adjective. This is what we've done with language, eh? Well I sent each of them a message on their talk pages over there and if Pit responds or asks to come back we'll unban him.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:25, December 18, 2013 (UTC)
I agree Queen, I miswrote my comment, I was sure I had written at least 1 month.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 18:35, December 18, 2013 (UTC)
May I ask where, if at all, Katie used the word "gay" as a derogatory term? I hope she won't mind me saying here, but she is gay herself, and considering, I, a good friend of her am also gay, it would be very out of character for her to say that. I can not speak on the behalf of Walkingdead1998, who is, quite frankly, a moron. Now, I know she'd never apologise considering her fairly stubborn nature (if she catches me posting this message, she'll kill me), but I would like to apologise on behalf of Katie. I doubt it will do much, (she loves using the word cunt, believe you me, so it's not personal). But perhaps it will shorten her ban here, however I have a feeling she won't be coming back anyway. I also know Pit12, quite a mild mannered individual, so I'd doubt he'd be calling these attacks on or anything. He shouldn't receive any of the blame. I'd like to apologise on behalf of my colleagues and friends at the Walking Dead Wiki (WalkingDead1998 not included) and hope that if it comes up, we can work alongside each other in Peace. RelicRaider (talk) 19:12, December 18, 2013 (UTC)
...upon closer inspection, Katie simply referred to my by vulgarity: [7] - it was Waklingdead1998 who made that page saying "TDD is gay!" which I deleted. Either way I was already willing to unban Katie and the others for a simple apology.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 19:33, December 18, 2013 (UTC)
Just to ease things, I think Katie's block should be altered to allow her to edit her own talk page.

Culture tag

I moved Spearwife because it is a unique aspect of Free Folk culture, like salt wives a and thralls for the Ironborn. "Salt wife" and "Thrall" are listed only as Ironborn culture.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 19:15, December 18, 2013 (UTC)

Well we need the more specific categories in addition to "Culture and Society" - I'm not good at this but I updated the badges to include "Culture and Society" to encourage people to work on them more - removing the basic "Culture and Society" tag is like taking the "Character" tag off a page.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 19:32, December 18, 2013 (UTC)

Draevan 13

We shouldn't be banning anyone on the basis of whether they contribute to the wiki substantially or just take part in discussions. We have plenty of people who only take part in the blogs and discussions and that's fine. Questioning wiki policy on canon and so on is also fine: we should always be open to re-evaluations of decisions. Banning should only be a serious option if he is seriously trolling the site, outright flaunting policy and making unacceptable edits etc. Draevan is not doing that at the moment.--Werthead (talk) 12:11, December 19, 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, Werthead. DRAEVAN13 14:17, December 19, 2013 (UTC)

Okay then.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 14:39, December 19, 2013 (UTC)

Badge Hunting

I suspect user Nototter might be badge-hunting. He makes repeated edits on the same articles, in some cases 5-6 edits on the same page in under 10 minutes, all on character pages. In most cases he's just changing words, i.e changing "After" to "Following" and not really correcting any problems. Just thought I should bring this up. DRAEVAN13 00:56, December 20, 2013 (UTC)

I will keep an eye on it. New users can get kind of obsessed with that, but so long as it isn't too egregious I try to ignore it and let them burn themselves out - I mean, after a while it takes 100 edits to make a badge, at which point either A - they stop badge-hunting, or B - the badge-hunting reaches such absurd levels (adding 300 articles to categories in a single day, seemingly at random) that I'll intervene.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 01:06, December 20, 2013 (UTC)


That racist jerk should be perma-banned.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 17:01, December 21, 2013 (UTC)

Well okay. Might not be the last we hear about racial casting opinions.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 22:22, December 25, 2013 (UTC)
I wasn't thinking about the comments on Pedro Pascal's ethnicity, but of the "the jews" comment.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 21:29, December 26, 2013 (UTC)

Significantly changed characters template

Considering that Loras has been turned into WillGarLoras Tyrell, that he's convinced Stannis killed Renly, and that he's caught up in his family's political games I think he should be added. And I consider Locke is a new character who takes over Vargo Hoat, like Ros taking over Chataya/Alayaya's role.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 21:32, December 26, 2013 (UTC)

The Tyrell reshuffling....I was hoping they'd fix in Season 4. I want to hold off and wait to see just how the heck they're going to address that the Tyrells don't like Oberyn Martell because of the accident with Willas (didn't they know this was going to happen in Season 3 when they reshuffled things?) Crud. We'll see how they handle that. I'm actually reluctant to call characters "significantly changed".
...Fundamentally, I feel Locke is simply the TV show's drastically changed version of Vargo Hoat, and renamed, but not an outright "original" character with zero basis in the books. Ros started out entirely original - and while they did give her a few of Alayaya's moments she wasn't really "the TV version of Alayaya", while Locke looks and behaves similar enough to Vargo Hoat. A question for the philosophers. We should ask Werthead.--14:29, December 27, 2013 (UTC)
Another thing about Loras being changed: his more stereotypical gay behavior: talking about clothes and jumping into bed with Olyvar.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 07:29, January 9, 2014 (UTC)

The White Walker in "Winter is Coming"

It has just come to my attention we have two articles with the exact same information except the actor's name... Isn't this a case of two actors playing the same character?. I'll ask Werthead about this but your opinion would be welcome.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 04:51, January 9, 2014 (UTC)

I think it was a mistake to think of them as individual characters - or at least as many as we did, given that they're all played by the same stunt man most of the time.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 01:32, January 13, 2014 (UTC)

A Death

Hey.... Uh, it's not my place to tell you but there's been a death of somebody who contributed to this wiki and The Walking Dead Wiki. I don't know if his Brother will make the post here or not, but you can ask him. I believe his Brother's name is Renney1. Pit12 (talk) 15:56, January 12, 2014 (UTC)Pit12

The Most Devout?

On the background of Margaery and Joffrey's wedding ceremony you see four robed guys with candles (two at each side) and between each pair there's an older looking guy also in robes... I hope they get acknowledge as the Most Devout, who should also be present for a royal wedding.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 06:18, January 12, 2014 (UTC) 

I sure hope they introduce the Most Devout next season, however, we can't jump to that conclusion until they're actually referred to as the "Most Devout" in official materials. For all we know these could just be unnamed clerics.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 01:32, January 13, 2014 (UTC)

Sansa "Lannister"

House Stark no longer powerful after Ned's and Robb's death but I see your point. She was not legally married to Tyrion without the bedding ceremony. Nazul Rostello (talk) 04:47, January 13, 2014 (UTC)

The bedding ceremony is irrelevant, that's just "for fun" and not every wedding requires it. The big point is that their marriage was never consummated.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 14:44, January 13, 2014 (UTC)

House navbox template

Do you know how we can format the base house navbox template to match the rest of the navboxes?--Gonzalo84 (talk) 21:17, January 13, 2014 (UTC)

I have tried and failed to do so in the past; we will need to tinker with it.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 16:38, January 14, 2014 (UTC)

Vandal warning

I've been fighting off multiple attempts to troll the individual episode pages (someone inserting swear words on pages for individual episodes) and have banned an unregistered ISP. Just a heads-up to keep an eye out.--Werthead (talk) 17:48, January 15, 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps we should, temporarily, lock down episode articles.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 17:59, January 15, 2014 (UTC)
Well we used to keep them semi-locked so anonymous IP addresses couldn't edit them. I lefted the locks in December. Is this one vandal, or just several due to high traffic in general?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:41, January 15, 2014 (UTC)


Hi The Dragon Demands, 

Just wanted to say your comments on the Game of Thrones Season 4 video were very cool and really inspired us to make the Fannotation video. We are revising the video now based on your feedback. We'd love to make more of these videos in the future, and to insure that we are not including spoilers, if you'd like to send me your email, i can include you on our script for the video so you can review it. My email is if you want to reach out. 


Peter@fandom 18:49, January 15, 2014 (UTC)

...I don't want to use my work e-mail (only current email) because my superiors would get annoyed. I hope the feedback I already posted should be okay for now - this was fun, we're waiting for the next trailer HBO releases.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 20:51, January 15, 2014 (UTC)

Same Guy who just shaved his beard?

Harys Swyft and Lannister bannerman 1 (The Ghost of Harrenhal). --Gonzalo84 (talk) 14:38, January 16, 2014 (UTC)

Heads. Spikes. Walls

Since you're a Targaryen shouldn't you have vandals listed as having being burned with wildfire or eaten by dragons?--Gonzalo84 (talk) 21:38, January 19, 2014 (UTC)

Oh I've actually put much thought into that. In their prime, the "good" Targaryens (or perhaps "efficient", "active") were conquerors and builders of empire. If not a Jaehaerys I, then Aegon I himself, or Maekar I, etc. Ruthless to those that opposed them, generous to those that played by their rules. Now it's a trend when empires decline that the pomp and ceremony increases - Aegon I had a simple crown while Aegon IV the Unworthy had a gigantic, jeweled, ostentatious one. Put another way, it's like the difference between Stannis (who is part Targaryen) and Renly. Maekar I was sort of a proto-Stannis (and indeed, is his ancestor).
The point is that much as Aegon the Conqueror only needed a simple crown, I don't need to be...."showy" with executions. Don't need to be ostentatious. Blunt, succinct, gets the job done. That's also why I specifically use the blunt wording "Heads. Spikes. Walls." instead of a more ornate description like "The Traitor's Walk for the Heads of Enemies of the State" or similar nonsense.
Also it later occurred to me that the Targaryens burn their dead as per Valyrian custom - so why "honor" their enemies in such fashion? They're not worth the flames.
But the main reason is that the better historical Targaryen kings didn't feel the need to be ornate or excessively cruel - they did what they had to do and left it at that.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 04:17, January 20, 2014 (UTC)


Thanks very much for your help. I'll take a wait-and-see approach. Season 4 is only a few months a way so we'll know soon. Andykatib 08:09, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

High Valyrian/Low Valyrian

Seeing AWoIaF and the books it has come to my attention that the language spoken in Slaver's Bay is High Valyrian, with their own accent, some slaver argot and Ghiscari words added. I bring this to you since you're the one who worked on the languages articles.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 19:37, January 21, 2014 (UTC)

Advice requested.

Hello, I'm sorry to bother you, but i am hoping you can give me some advice regarding my wiki. I know the last time we spoke it ended poorly, but i know you will respond, and will be honest while doing so. On top of that i don't know many admin who work on wikis for TV shows, so i have few people i can ask who would be helpful.

To my point, im working on the Black sails wiki, its a new show we are expecting a lot of minor characters and deaths. My main questions while working on this wiki are these:

  1. Can an article become to long and detailed? I fear that when i write that i add more then need and it might start to hurt us.
  2. Is there a point when a character with dialog doesn't need an article. We are giving articles to characters listed in the credits, but should we also create articles for some who may not be credited, but are seen often.

Again, thank you for your time, i know you put a lot into this wiki, and you guys must be busy, so the last thing i'm sure you want is me asking for help on a wiki you have no involvement in.

I hope you are all doing well, and good luck with the next season.-Cheatcodechamp (talk) 10:01, January 23, 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for the advice, this is the first time i have worked with a wiki from that start, and i dont need an early mistake hurting us in the long term. Again, i hope everything is going well for you here, you put a lot of time in to make this wiki what it is, and it shows. Thanks again, and happy editing.-Cheatcodechamp (talk) 05:26, February 2, 2014 (UTC)

Religions and deities articles

I have just noticed that at La Garde de Nuit, the French version of AWoIaF, they have separate articles for religions, in which religious practices and beliefs are listed, and deities, which deals with them as characters.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 18:16, January 23, 2014 (UTC)

I think of it as a size issue - i.e. if the Faith of the Seven article gets too long, we shift material to a sub-article on just "the Seven". The idea being that preferably, all information on a religion is in one place (ease of use for casual readers) but never to the extent that we limit information. As the article grow we'll just branch them out into new pages. --The Dragon Demands (talk) 01:39, February 2, 2014 (UTC)


Hi there,

Can you please kindly unprotect the Ygritte article. I would like to update the Season 3 section now that I have watched it. Thankyou very much. Best. Andykatib 04:14, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

  • Hi just a reminder to reduce the protection level for Ygritte. We're approaching Season 4 already and I think it is safe to update it. Can you please leave a message on my talk page. Andykatib 10:47, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

image removal

Hello, I accidentally uploaded a file that has nothing to do with Game of Thrones. Is there a way to completely remove/delete it? I'd really like File:Untitled2.png to be removed. Cheers in advance. DaHuzyBru (talk) 07:24, January 31, 2014 (UTC)

Surrender vs. Imprisonment

We need another icon for those who are made prisoners, like Jaime at the Whispering Wood or Edmure after the Red Wedding. I haven't yet found a proper shackles icon.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 18:24, February 1, 2014 (UTC)

Yes. For now, should we just say "POW", which is what we were using?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:28, February 1, 2014 (UTC)
I have uploaded a ball and chain for imprisoned characters. Turns out the tiny cross is used for those killed in battle, while those executed go with a tiny skull. That tiny skull would come in handy for Theon's crew and Lord Karstark.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 18:47, February 1, 2014 (UTC)
I strongly think that we should just use "POW" - too many icons will confuse the readers who aren't familiar with them. I don't think we should count execution separately from "killed" as they were killed in the aftermath of the battle, thus part of the overall event.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:55, February 1, 2014 (UTC)

Locations category

Following the example set by "Characters" they should all be listed as Locations... but I think manmade structures should be removed from "Geography".--Gonzalo84 (talk) 06:33, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

Wait...what is the difference between "Geography" and "Locations"?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 16:05, February 5, 2014 (UTC)
To me, geography should refer to all landmarks not made by man: rivers, mountains, forests, seas, bays, valleys.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 16:30, February 5, 2014 (UTC)
So cities such as King's Landing or Braavos would be locations but not geography. But what about regions such as "The Disputed Lands"?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 16:32, February 5, 2014 (UTC)
Geography is the study of the Earth and everything on it, including artifical structures. So, no, the category should remain the same.--Werthead (talk) 11:41, February 7, 2014 (UTC)
Then the "Locations" category is redundant and all "Locations in XXXXX" categories should be renamed "Places in XXXXXX".--Gonzalo84 (talk) 22:28, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

Inside Game of Thrones

The official title of the first book is still 'Inside Game of Thrones', whilst the second one is being listed variously as 'Inside Game of Thrones: Seasons 3 and 4' or 'Inside Game of Thrones Volume II'. Personally, I'd go for the latter as it's clearer.--Werthead (talk) 11:37, February 7, 2014 (UTC)

Why Sansa Stark is never renamed "Sansa Lannister"

That sectionis so long I think its time for a "Naming conventions" article properly categorized in the Culture & Society.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 02:59, February 12, 2014 (UTC)

Histories & Lore Season 3

The new Histories & Lore videos are out on YouTube!!

​You and the Administators should watch them and add to the wiki; there's a lot of new content. -- Daemon Targaryen (talk) 6:05, February 17, 2014 (EST)

I was already on it - not as much raw information this time, though better artwork.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 23:07, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

References/See also

"See also" must go before references.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 23:51, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Recap Video

Hi, Thanks for the heads up about the second trailer! Also, I wanted to mention I'm planning on making a Season 3 Recap video, in the same format as the one we made last year --

I'll have it ready in about two weeks.

Peter@fandom 18:35, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

Reyne Rebellion

So. Cersei told Margaery the Reynes rebelled against her father when he was already a Lord and she was like ten or nine. Now in The Westerlands video Tywin says the Reynes rebelled when Tytos was still alive and he suppressed the rebellion when he came of age (becoming 17 probably). Tywin still states the Reyne's were the second richest family in Westeros.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 04:31, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

Targaryen kings

Hey, could you please read my blog post with the image of the Targaryen kings and tell me what you think? Much appreciated. Greater Good 14:40, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

I don't use a YT downloader. Greater Good 15:54, February 20, 2014 (UTC)


We have an article for raiding, why not one for flaying?--Gonzalo84 (talk) 18:00, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

Allegiance in organizations infobox

There is not an allegiance section in the template.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 04:12, March 13, 2014 (UTC)


House Connigton was "demoted" to a mere knightly house by Robert because Ser Ronald Connington joined the rebellion only after the Trident. He was stripped of much of his lands which were given to more loyal supporters of the rebellion.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 06:52, March 13, 2014 (UTC)

"Ongoing Edit" template

I have created an "Ongoing Edit" banner: {{OngoingEdit}}. Add it to an article you're editing to help prevent annoying edit conflicts while doing long edits.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 17:04, March 14, 2014 (UTC)

Just a heads up

Sadly, I will not have access to HBO this spring. My internet provider has also been watching for illegal downloads, so that option is out the window (although I would never do that ;) So yeah, this SUCKS! So unless I find a friend who has HBOGO and allows me to use their password, I won't be on the GoT Wiki for awhile. I'd hate to see spoilers. :( Just wanted to let you know that is why I'll be absent. QueenBuffy35px-Pink crown 17:16, March 14, 2014 (UTC)

Oh you're telling me: I've never "paid" for any of this stuff. I can't afford the Blu-ray box sets, and I watch the show using an HBO Go Password that a family member lent to me (it's not my account). I watch the animated featurettes on YouTube. I get screencaps for things from various screencapper fansites. Hey, I think devoting this much time to making a guide to their TV show for free sort of pays them back. I sleep soundly. It's all in the game.
Oh crap...this is terrible. Season 4 has more Lannister goodness than the past seasons put together. We've never had Tywin and all three of his children interacting in the same room before: sparks will FLY, I tell you.
Oh "internet provider watching for illegal downloads" - they don't have the time or resources to search everything. They send out some token warnings so they won't get sued, a few token punishments, but on the whole, it's the Wild West out here.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 17:52, March 14, 2014 (UTC)
I agree with Dragon. I have HBO because its kind of cheap over here in Peru, with the 2nd lowest "cable pack", you get HBO (though not HBO HD). Truth be told, immediately after watching the episode I watch it online (I don't download it because it takes too much time) to see if I missed something because my dad, who I converted into a viewer, sometimes doesn't understand or has forgotten some detail.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 18:09, March 14, 2014 (UTC)
Well, I'm currently living on my father's property and it is his internet. We've already been warned twice by the provider, so I can't risk it. :/ And yes, I am so upset I will miss it that I haven't even watched one teaser trailer or video pertaining to the new season. I thought about trying to download it at my gym...they have free wifi, but it is probably blocked from that. Idk. QueenBuffy35px-Pink crown 18:19, March 14, 2014 (UTC)
The new internet provider copyright alert system only works for torrents, not for direct downloading sites. --The Dragon Demands (talk) 19:16, March 14, 2014 (UTC)
What do you think about watching it streaming from sites like SideReel? Do those get you in trouble? QueenBuffy35px-Pink crown 20:57, March 14, 2014 (UTC)
I don't know. What I used to do was just string together clips from Youtube as they became available (some of the better channels practically post full episodes, just cut up into scene by scene versions. I don't have an overall answer, though, I'm sorry.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 21:00, March 14, 2014 (UTC)
Do you have some good links to pages that have/will have the downloads? QueenBuffy35px-Pink crown 22:57, March 14, 2014 (UTC)
Oh no, they change every season. But it's "the most downloaded TV show currently airing"...officially. They won't be that hard to find...--The Dragon Demands (talk) 01:27, March 15, 2014 (UTC)


Hey Dragon, so I was just wondering do you possibly know where I could find a complete list of the categories on the Wiki? Since I would like to add some, but I want to see what I'm working with first. Just to make sure I know what would belong and what wouldn't. Thanks. Zippertrain85 (talk) 18:13, March 14, 2014 (UTC)

Check out:
Basically if you see a similar article, you then copy categories to other appropriate articles on a "monkey see, monkey do" observational learning basis.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 19:21, March 14, 2014 (UTC)


Yes! HBO are finally releasing official House Bolton Merchandise for purchase through their online store! At long last I can express my inexplicable, ever so slightly disturbing love for my House in t-shirt form!--The-Boy 12:46, March 16, 2014 (UTC)

Why not? They're the new Great House of the North.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 02:15, March 18, 2014 (UTC)

Northern vassals

Should all the Northern Houses be listed as vassals of House Bolton now?--The-Boy 14:02, March 20, 2014 (UTC)]]

...We should do what AWOIAF does, but we have more pressing, basic updates to get through before Season 4 starts.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 14:12, March 20, 2014 (UTC)

Indeed, we don't know how the show will show the Northern vassals, which will support the Boltons and which will defy them.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 15:54, March 20, 2014 (UTC)
You see, Boy, some of the Northern Houses do nominally pledge to the Boltons (Karstark, Umber, Manderly), but the Mormonts are isolated enough that I think they never even tacitly acknowledged the Boltons, they just shifted to being neutral for a while.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 16:15, March 20, 2014 (UTC)
All will bend the knee... in time.--The-Boy 21:45, March 27, 2014 (UTC)


I think he was acting on good faith and maybe is a a little overzealous to contribute. I think his temporary ban should be shorter and he should keep his sandbox. He's clearly no CestWhat.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 15:20, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

Dean-Charles Chapman

What's the source that states he's playing Tommen?--Gonzalo84 (talk) 01:30, March 24, 2014 (UTC)

I asked those concerned to add the citations, but he was seen at the red carpet advanced premiere for Season 4's first episode - the new photo of him his from this, reports - that and his previous character died last season, so why else would he prominently reappear?

Either way we've got maybe a week to go at this point.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 01:35, March 24, 2014 (UTC)

He could appear as yet another Lannister--Gonzalo84 (talk) 01:56, March 24, 2014 (UTC)

Season Three Recap Video

Hi, Just a heads up, we'll have a cool season three recap video for you on Wednesday - it will be in a similar format as last year's recap video we made. We hope you'll consider promoting it on your main page. Cheers. Peter@fandom 05:56, March 24, 2014 (UTC)

Oh, okay.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 06:06, March 24, 2014 (UTC)

"Must Watch" Videos

This unsightly blemish has made a reappearance on some pages today. I want to complain to Wikia directly, and make it clear that we want this thing gone before S4 premiers. Just making sure we are all of one mind regarding this?--The-Boy 13:47, March 25, 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I already complained on that Wikia page that QueenBuffy told me to complain on.--The Dragon Demands ([[User talk:The Dragon

Demands|talk]]) 19:19, March 25, 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, I noticed. I don't think anyone will reply there, though, so I intend to complain directly to a member of Wikia's staff.--The-Boy 17:52, March 27, 2014 (UTC)

About the Tyrell Heraldry image

I did nothing. In Margaery Tyrell's page, the heraldry images were for unknown reasons deleted or not found, so I updated them with an image of the Tyrell sigil that I found on the wiki (which is being used by other pages).

Please, if I did anything wrong, I apologize in advance.  

Season 3 Recap Video

Here you go -- Hope you like it. Would you mind putting on your main page? It's on our YouTube channel as well as we'll annotate it to send people back to your article pages. Peter@fandom 03:28, March 28, 2014 (UTC)

Season Three Recap

Hey The Dragon Demands, Since I didn't hear back from you I went ahead and added the video the main page. Hope that's okay! Peter@fandom 23:13, March 29, 2014 (UTC)

Yeah sorry, I'm juggling seven tasks at once here...--The Dragon Demands (talk) 23:40, March 29, 2014 (UTC)

Tyrell heraldry

The problem has been fixed. And the articles of House Tyrell members under "Broken file links" category are now clean.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 23:50, March 29, 2014 (UTC)

Are you sure? It seems to be fixed. What caused the Tyrell heraldry image icon to not display like that?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 04:45, March 30, 2014 (UTC)

An article for "Lackwit"

Since we have an article for Dwarfism, I thought about writing one for slow-witted individuals. Which word do you think the title should be?--Gonzalo84 (talk) 00:23, March 31, 2014 (UTC)

...I've wondered this too, but they haven't introduced any mentally handicapped people other than Hodor...what with Jinglebell Frey being cut, and they haven't mentioned some of the mentally handicapped Targaryen children. I do not think we should make any article at this time, because 1 - it would only have Hodor as an example, and 2 - they haven't actually used the term "lackwit" in-universe yet, there's no established in-universe term for the mentally disabled. We only even really have Hodor to go on anyway; what would we say that isn't on his page?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 00:33, March 31, 2014 (UTC)
We also have Mord. Have they used half-wit? --Gonzalo84 (talk) 01:12, March 31, 2014 (UTC)
They haven't used half-wit. ...Mord wasn't a lackwit, he was just a stupid thug.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 03:17, March 31, 2014 (UTC)
Theon calls Hodor a halfwit. As for Mord, AWoIaF does refer to him as a lackwit.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 05:01, April 3, 2014 (UTC)

Tyrion calls Joffrey a half-wit in season 2 but I don't think it's ever used in that context.--09:37, March 31, 2014 (UTC)

I think he was using it figuratively for Mord, i.e. "you moron!" isn't meant literally. Again I think that without Jingebell Frey we don't have much to justify anything yet, only Hodor.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 05:09, April 3, 2014 (UTC)


Regarding your enquiry about making images larger in the infobox: I'm not entirely sure, but I think our infoboxes (being very basic) don't allow us to do this. Images shouldn't really be forced to appear larger than their actual dimensions, as it results in the image appearing pixilated and fuzzy. Still, Something newer, and a little more advanced might be worth considering in the future, once S4 is finished.--The-Boy 13:24, March 31, 2014 (UTC)

Don't trust stuff posted on April 1st. A god-damned PAY TO READ more than ten articles a day on Wookiepedia? They might as well nuke the whole thing. Decreasing ad revenue? THE ENTIRE POINT was that Wikias are ad-supported! Surely this won't affect OUR wiki will it? Only because Wookiepedia is so huge?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 03:00, April 1, 2014 (UTC)
And how will that move affect us admins? If they are going to charge users to read they should pay admins to admin.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 15:34, April 1, 2014 (UTC)
It has to be an April Fool's day joke. Wookiepedia is actually well-known for making April Fool's Day jokes.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 15:50, April 1, 2014 (UTC)
I forgot it was April's Fool's Day.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 19:44, April 1, 2014 (UTC)
Besides, there are other ways to get profit from working on this wiki. Merchandising is where the real money is: [8]--The Dragon Demands (talk) 20:00, April 1, 2014 (UTC)


How did you get the Crakehall heraldry? And how can I help finding more banners?--Gonzalo84 (talk) 01:00, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

Oh there weren't that many. There were maybe two or three better shots of heraldry in the HBO Go In-Episode Guide. Really the only major ones of note were better shots of Whent and Crakehall, which I already found. Took me a while to figure out how to get the pictures from the guide.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 02:21, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

House Frey in the Season 3 Guide

Talk about a mess: Black Walder Rivers, son of Walder Frey.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 03:49, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

Indeed. Lord Walder is also now Lord Paramount of the Trident, and Roose Bolton is Lord of Winterfell...--The-Boy 11:45, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

I think/hope that the Season 4 guide will clear this up.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 15:53, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

Battles vs. "Events"

Events like the Liberation of Harrenhal and the Surrender of the Crag are not battles. There is no violence involved. I agree that the "Event" infobox is crappy, but we need a better infobox, not cram up every two-sided event as a battle. That's why I created the Massacres and Assassinations template.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 19:56, April 3, 2014 (UTC)

Well okay the, but they should still be listed in the chronology of the war they happened during.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 20:11, April 3, 2014 (UTC)

Obviously. In fact I think we should add a new article to the War of the Five Kings: the Execution of Ned Stark since it takes place already into the war, following the Battle of the Camps.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 20:22, April 3, 2014 (UTC)

Martell heraldry

Is it just me, or is there no new heraldry for House Martell in the updated Viewer's Guide? Is it hiding in a family tree somewhere?--The-Boy 12:48, April 5, 2014 (UTC)

They remade the whole thing from scratch, trying to "streamline" it by only including very important family trees. Remember that there is no overview page for Season 3 (not yet anyway) so each individual page is customed to each individual episode. I.e. the Greyjoys don't appear on most, though you can still reach them if you click through the connections and internal links.
I do hope they eventually make an "overview" page which lists EVERY family tree, as forcing viewers to rely on episode by episode is too narrow. I'm annoyed that they "streamlined" it to take out the minor Houses, but then again these guys are for TV-only viewers who have no idea who Roose Bolton even is after two full seasons of being a character on the show --- they have even less of an idea of who the Mormonts and Umbers are.
At any rate I'm not concerned because by the logic of "only include House trees in a specific episode guide page if members appear in that episode", we should be getting a big Martell update tomorrow with the premiere.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 15:14, April 5, 2014 (UTC)
That makes sense. I do hope you're right, as the Martells are now the only Great House to not have an entry in the "guide"... On a related subject, I've created a new heraldry for House Blackfyre: I took the Targaryen sigil from the viewer's guide, and used an image editing program to reverse the colors... is that acceptable, or too... "fan-ish"? Personally I don't see the difference between that and the current one, which was created using the Join Realm App on I think mine's better, but I'll defer to your judgement.--The-Boy 11:30, April 6, 2014 (UTC)
The Blackfyre heraldry is fine; we sort of made our own but in-universe it's a simple recoloring of Targaryen heraldry.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 13:35, April 6, 2014 (UTC)
Cool, I'll make the change. Also, Wikia have misinterpreted "please remove the "Must Watch Videos" from the Game of Thrones Wiki" to: move them to the right hand column. Yes, they're less in the way... sort of, but I'm annoyed at the lack of respect for the wishes of individual communities. I just don't know what else we can do about it at this stage.--The-Boy 13:58, April 6, 2014 (UTC)

Special Thanks

Hi, The Dragon Demands!

Just wanted to personally say THANK YOU for all your contributions on the video comments. I did have to close the window for comment contributions to the actual video, but you got top billing in the credits. Your consistently great editing on this community hasn't gone unnoticed here at Wikia. Congrats, BTW -- thought you might want to to know that the pageviews for the day after the season 4 premiere have already BLOWN AWAY the numbers for the day after the season 3 premiere.

If there's anything you want to see Wikia do in terms of programming to highlight the hard work that you all are doing here, we'd love help make it happen. Please just let me know.

I did want to personally ask you about an opportunity that we might be able to extend to you. If you have time could you email me at before the end of the day Monday? THANKS!!

--Brian@fandom 19:45, April 7, 2014 (UTC)

I'm studying for a test and couldn't write back. What?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 11:57, April 8, 2014 (UTC)
That's an email you definitely want to write if you can :) --Werthead (talk) 20:05, April 8, 2014 (UTC)

a personal message

I have an instinct about this and much experience and have reviewed some of the things you have written in this wiki. Read this over and seriously consider it. Don't just read it once and make a snap judgement but come back and review it a week later and search for other references. There are FB groups with other people you can check in with and ask questions to see if there is commonality. You are young and can get off the meds after the DBT, if you work it daily. I wish you well. You are brilliant but I see suffering of a kind I am very familiar with and needed to say something. [9] Alatari (talk) 18:18, April 8, 2014 (UTC)

Length of the series

I'm afraid the recent revisions to the main Game of Thrones article are too long, far too vague and too speculative to be a useful part of the Wiki. Excellent material for a talk page, yes, but not for a main one. The producers and, most critically, HBO themselves, have been clear that they see the show lasting for seven seasons. We can certainly report that Benioff and Weiss have, very recently, indicated that eight seasons is not completely off the table, but saying, "No one knows," when there have been some fairly hard comments on this is somewhat misleading. I don't want to delete all the good work you've done, so if you could look at moving it to a talk page or saving it somewhere?--Werthead (talk) 20:04, April 8, 2014 (UTC)

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