|Talk page archives|
Splitting up the creature templates
I strongly feel that it is a mistake to break up the creature templates. You, I, and other regulars know how to find pages on these different topics - but a major library science principle is to remember that casual users do not even know exactly what they're looking for. Only rarely will they type a proper noun into a search engine. Thus the creature templates are a vital navigation tool, "access points" for people who are casual viewers and browsing their way through information.
I would argue to restore it as it was (mirroring how AWOIAF has one big template for everything). At the very least, I think there should only be a division between sentient beings versus animals (of all kinds) and plants. I also don't think that the Free Folk clans template should be separate from the "peoples" template. Non-human sapient races are also a concern. I strongly feel that separating the templates will harm navigation for casual viewers.
On a separate question...was it ever established that the Hill tribes belong under the "First Men" subdivision? I sort of assumed they may be remnants of the First Men of the Vale driven to the hills, but was their origin ever established in the books? For all we know they're part of the same Andal/First Men mix as everyone else (we've heard no mention of their religious practices, for example).--The Dragon Demands (talk) 21:23, January 8, 2014 (UTC)
- I agree that I may have been a little extreme with the divisions. the truth is the only thing I found weird is having ine the same template a division of human cultures and ghost grass.
- As for the Free Folk, since the Free Folk are descended of the First Men I found it weird to have them separate from the mini list that includes Northmen and Crannogmen.
- Perhaps we can find a middle ground: one template for human cultures and another for all living beings, including a link to a "Humans" article that gives a little overview to humans in GoT setting and links to the different cultures.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 02:42, January 9, 2014 (UTC)
- Regarding the Hill tribes, I think I have made the same assumption because, based on what little we know of them, their culture is more similar to that of the Free Folk and the Northern mountain clans (clan-based organization, raid-based economy, strenght-based leadership) than to the "more civilized" Andals.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 02:42, January 9, 2014 (UTC)
- Yeah, I originally put "Free Folk" separately in order to show its subdivisions...how best to portray the three-level subdivision of "First Men-->Free Folk-->Thenn"?
- Yes, I think we should make it only two templates: one for humans, one for all animals/creatures/plants. Where do we put non-human races? I think they should be with humans - and that the divide should be based on "sapient" or not. I'm still not sure about the Hill Tribes given that we know so little about them, but I could go either way.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 02:51, January 9, 2014 (UTC)
Alton and Cynda Lannister
Starks to Stannis
Why the shift from the Starks to Stannis?
(I do really like Stannis, in both the books and TV series. An added bonus is that he's actually part Targaryen. When all is done I hope Daenerys leaves Shireen in charge of the Stormlands).--The Dragon Demands (talk) 04:20, January 20, 2014 (UTC)
- Because the Starks are scattered... for now.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 04:23, January 20, 2014 (UTC)
Hello! I was wondering, if you would consider having an affiliation w each other? I am the new Reign wiki. :) I love this show so hard and would love to be added on. As you would be added to my page of course. --~ Lorisa! (talk) 01:05, February 1, 2014 (UTC)
- Administrator QueenBuffy usually handles Wikia affiliation stuff, she can help you out.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 04:09, February 1, 2014 (UTC)
...I never saw this!! kk, thanks! :)
Things such as "Winterfell" are categorized as "Locations in the North", but currently are not put in the general category "Locations". Should such locations be in both? "Winterfell: Locations in the North, Locations"? Or, is the "Locations" category meant to be an upper-level organization of the other categories, "Locations in the North", "Locations in the Reach", etc.?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 23:36, February 4, 2014 (UTC)
- I have taken the task to add everything in "locations" as well as their respective places. I stopped because of your conversation with Werthead. We must choose between "locations" and "geography".--Gonzalo84 (talk) 02:46, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
Thank you for the rules.
Baratheons' Targaryen relationship from Histories & Lore
Ugh. Check out: Robert's Rebellion (Histories & Lore) -- Varys and Littlefinger.
It says Robert Baratheon had Targaryen blood "through his mother."
As I explain there, in the books Rhaelle Targaryen was his father Steffon's mother -- and Rhaelle was the sister of Jaehaerys II, cut from the show.
The other option we suspected was that the TV continuity used Steffon's blood relationship to Orys Baratheon to justify Robert's claim to the throne...though Orys was never officially acknowledged.
At first I was frumious about this new revelation.
Now I'm starting to think it's not as crazy as it sounds: If they removed Jaehaerys II's generation, perhaps it was a simple matter of making Robert's mother a Targaryen, instead of his grandmother.
In which case Cassana Baratheon gets retconned out of existence (not that it matters much, she died in the shipwreck with Steffon long ago).
Nonetheless we're still not sure exactly how Robert's Targaryen mother would fit into the family tree: Aegon V's sister? TV-Aegon V's daughter, and thus sister to the Mad King?
This was probably the biggest info to come out of the Histories & Lore Season 3 (well that, and I think Joffrey sort of implied that he raped Tommen).--The Dragon Demands (talk) 16:15, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
Orys having Targaryen blood was implied in the "House Baratheon" featurette. The new "Through his mother" doesn't neccessarily imply Robert's mother was Rhaelle, only that his mother had Targaryen blood. As for Tommen I don't think Joffrey raped him but still subjected him to physical abuse.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 18:22, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
Well, Orys becomes a moot point if they say his mother had Targaryen blood. But if she wasn't Rhaelle, who was she? A new composite character?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:32, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
- Occam's Razor: Cassana Baratheon had some Targaryen blood.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 18:42, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
- Sorry I haven't been able to help out with the Season 3 Histories & Lore as much as I wanted -- once again, my ongoing work on my thesis is in very bad shape and eating up most of my time. I can only pop in for some of the major stuff, not thoroughly combing through everything. If I don't finish this and my language comps by May I'm not going to get my degree.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 16:49, February 23, 2014 (UTC)
Hey, could you please read my blog post with the image of the Targaryen kings and tell me what you think? Much appreciated. Greater Good 14:37, February 20, 2014 (UTC)
Garden of Bones
I'm concerned that someone has added information to the plot summary of Garden of Bones that does not happen in the episode. In describing the scene where Joffrey orders Ros to beat the prostitute, someone wrote: "While clearly remorseful for the girls' injuries, Tyrion refuses to let Joffrey bully him or others around." No such event occurs in the episode. In 2013 another IP actually removed a similar statement, but then someone put it back. Summaries should accurately describe the episode as broadcast, otherwise it harms the reliability of the wiki. It's possible there might be a deleted or extended scene - or perhaps the incident is referenced in a later episode where such a scene occurs - but I just watched the episode and it isn't in there. Anyway, I wanted to give you the heads up because if someone is adding either false info, or injecting info from future episodes (or perhaps even the books) that's probably a no-no. 188.8.131.52 15:50, February 21, 2014 (UTC)
- ...that isn't "vandalism", that's just "opinionated and skewed interpretation". It happens literally every day on wikis. Literally every hour, really. That's the constant struggle to maintain quality. Generically, yes, we know we need quality control checks on past episode reviews, but there is much work to do. Thank you for removing it though, it was not a good interpretation of what happened. If you want to actively help you should probably make a free account to help out.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 16:47, February 23, 2014 (UTC)
Wikia Game of Thrones Review Videos
Hi! I work in marketing for Wikia -- highlighting cool things that our communities are doing around anticipated entertainment.
We've got something fun planned around the return of Game of Thrones and I wondered if you might want to be a part of it. We're producing a short video each week that contrasts fan reactions to the series with a TV critic's reaction -- the idea is to capture the enthusiasm of the community here, and have a little fun back and forth.
I can give ya more details! If this sounds like something you might be interested in, give me a shout on my wall or email email@example.com. Thanks! Brian 15:18, February 28, 2014 (UTC)
- Hi Brian. I'm quite busy these months so I can't commit to this. Besides, these marketing Wikia things are QueenBuffy's territory.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 19:22, February 28, 2014 (UTC)
Jaime sends his regards
- In the bluray extras about "The Rains of Castamere" they explain that the scripts originally said "Jaime Lannister sends his regards" and even Nikolaj was confused and asked if Jaime really was part of the conspiracy.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 22:02, March 5, 2014 (UTC)
Brackets for Dead characters warning template
This has been happening frequently enough that I put together a quick template warning, so we don't have to waste time writing up individual explanations each time this happens: http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Template:BracketsSignifyDeadCharacters
- I agree. It will save us some time.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 15:45, March 14, 2014 (UTC)
Redwyne and Renly
- There are no quotes about House Redwyne whatsoever.--Gonzalo84
But your edit I linked says:
"Unlike what's stated by the Season 2 bluray, in the books House Redwyne doesn't declare for Renly during the early stages of the War of the Five Kings because Queen Cersei Lannister holds the twin sons of Lord Paxter hostage. They do join their Tyrell liege lords in aiding the Lannister army in the Battle of the Blackwater."
Oh, about that. The bluray shows the Redwyne sigils as Renly's supporters in the War of the Five Kings special feature.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 13:56, March 14, 2014 (UTC)
The term "pleasure house" has been used on the TV series, but I think it might be better to merge it into the "prostitution" article with a redirect. Also, do they only call them "pleasure houses" in Essos? I thought Westeros had "brothels".--The Dragon Demands (talk) 20:47, March 14, 2014 (UTC)
- I wasn't sure that they were called "pleasure houses" excluvisely in Essos. I created the Pleasure house article because of its association with slavery more than the "free women" in the brothels of Westeros.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 21:36, March 14, 2014 (UTC)
On the culture infobox, some are "feudal-based" (Northerners, Andals, Dornish, ironborn) while others are clan-based (Hill-tribes). What should we do for some groups who are technically clan-based, but who use "House" designations as a formality? The Northern hill tribes haven't been introduced yet, but the book makes it a point that while they're more "clans" than "Houses", they're "civilized" and function as miniature Houses, treated with respect by being called "House Norrey" to be polite, etc. For the moment, we do have a similar problem with the Crannogmen: they live as basically clans, and hunt instead of farming, but they are formally organized and recognized as "Houses".--The Dragon Demands (talk) 21:10, March 14, 2014 (UTC)
I think they should remain in "clan-based" as well.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 21:39, March 14, 2014 (UTC)
- I think that, specifically for the crannogmen now but later the Northern hill tribes, we should list them as "clan-based" but in the article mention that "they're clan-based but are extended the dignity of being called Houses".--The Dragon Demands (talk) 01:25, March 15, 2014 (UTC)
R'hllor typo in "The Climb"
Did the Blu-ray release fix that typo in the subtitles for "The Climb" which misspelled the FIRST AND ONLY TIME that R'hllor has appeared on-screen?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 19:05, March 15, 2014 (UTC)
- Haven't bought the bluray yet.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 05:13, March 17, 2014 (UTC)
Back from Thesis
I stopped regularly editing about two weeks ago on February 14th to finally finish my thesis. I'll be catching up in the next few hours.
Sorry it's taken me a while to get around to this; I've sent a report to Wikia's maintenance team, so we should get a diagnosis and hopefully a solution in the next few days.-- 12:24, March 18, 2014 (UTC)
- It's been going on for weeks and even Wikipedia.org is having problems; but nothing will happen if we don't complain.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:15, March 18, 2014 (UTC)
I don't think we should use "Southerner" as an official term too much, specifically not in infoboxes. As the article explains, it's actually a fairly vague term, sometimes just meaning "not Northmen" (including Ironborn?); very loosely, "Southerner" can even apply to Dorne. So I think it is better to list people like Tywin Lannister or Catelyn Stark as "Andal" (yes they have some First Men blood, but they're mostly Andal, culturally Andal).
You're right... Andal may be more fitting. As for the Blackwoods they can remain Andals.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 19:45, March 18, 2014 (UTC)
Stark children religion
What should we put down for the Stark children under the "religion" spot in their infoboxes? It was an interfaith family. Jon Snow specifically said he follows the Old Gods - probably given that he was influenced by Eddard but Catelyn had nothing to do with him. Bran...apparently, just worships the Old Gods, also strongly influenced by his father? And Rickon was influenced by Bran more than Catelyn before she left. Arya of course has the God of Death thing going on, but we have that covered.
I sort of got the feeling that the girls were more influenced by Catelyn than the boys were. In any case, in the books, what was the religion of Robb and Sansa? Robb seemed more Old Gods like his father - yeah the TV show cheated a bit by having him married by a Septon, but Cogman's rationalization made enough sense; he was raised in an interfaith household, fairly open to both, he might have just liked the ceremony or no one else was available. Sansa is a bigger concern: very much her mother's daughter, does she pray to the Old Gods at all? I mean I know she goes to a godswood to pray at times but that might just have been an excuse to get away from everyone.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 15:13, March 19, 2014 (UTC)
- In the books Sansa finds solace in the Old Gods as a way to reconect with her dead father, and because the godswood is mostly empty. The closest we've got in the series is when she's praying by the tree stump and she's approached by Margaery, but we don't know if that's the Red Keep's godswood. --Gonzalo84 (talk) 22:16, March 19, 2014 (UTC)
I'm straightening up the Essos section; I added a subheader about the Free Cities.
How should we handle the rest? Particularly the Rhoynar and Valyrians? I'm not sure if we should say they're "extinct" or something...the Rhoynar survived as the Dornish, and the modern Free Cities do have Valyrian blood in them (thinned out, but particularly Lys and the aristocracy of Volantis) and also the Targaryens.
Also, should we make a division between "Central Essos" and "Eastern Essos" (Qarth and Asshai) or would this make the template needlessly complicated and long?
Most importantly, how are we handling the article on "Ghiscari"? Is this about the ancient "Ghiscari" of the old Ghiscari Empire, or about the peoples of Slaver's Bay in the present? (much as "Rhoynar" and "Dornish" are two separate things).--The Dragon Demands (talk) 19:25, March 19, 2014 (UTC)
- Unlike Rhoynar and Dornish, there is only one name for both ancient Ghiscari and modern Ghiscari, so the "Ghiscari" article should include both peoples, the "pure" Ghiscari of the "Old Empire" and the mongrel Ghiscari of modern Slaver's Bay and New Ghis.
The show won't cover much of the eastern Essos, I don't think we'll ever see Asshai or Yi Ti, and the show hasn't even mentioned their people the way the novels did, so I think we shouldn't do much divisions.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 21:38, March 19, 2014 (UTC)
Bethany Ryswell and Bolton family tree
I want to remake the Bolton family tree to resemble the one on AWOIAF (removing the unnamed miller's wife) - to include Bethany Ryswell. I'm fairly certain that Season 4 will eventually explain who Domeric Bolton was and that his mother was Bethany Ryswell, and we have heard mention of Domeric -- but at this point there's been no in-universe material about it, so would it be getting ahead of ourselves to update the family tree just now? Maybe we should wait until an episode mentions it?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 17:02, March 20, 2014 (UTC)
- I think we should add Domeric, with his mother being referred to as "Lady Bolton (Deceased)".--Gonzalo84 (talk) 17:16, March 20, 2014 (UTC)
Okay, I've made some progress with investigating the issue with the family tree templates; apparently it's nothing to do with Wikia, but is being caused by Google Chrome itself! I've checked the pages in Firefox, and they work fine, so that does indeed seem to be the case. The technician I spoke to from Wikia said that the guys on the Fallout Wiki experienced the same problem, and liaised with Google to fix it, so it looks like we're going to have to do that. They're still working on fixing the title blacklist for us.-- 21:22, March 20, 2014 (UTC)
The weird thing is that some trees look good... like the House Stark one
Oh, I didn't realise that the Jon Connington article was written by Greater good; an admin. The title blacklist doesn't prevent admins for creating pages, just regular users. That being said, there shouldn't be anything wrong with it. I'll be contacting the Fallout Wiki admins later today to find out how they fixed their rogue templates.-- 10:55, March 23, 2014 (UTC)
Why did you undo my edit on all the pages I edited? That corrected a sentences and added more information? In addition, you gave no reason for that what so ever. It's very frustrating to have all of your work undone and not even get proper reason for why. So, if you could tell me that would be great. Zippertrain85 (talk) 15:26, March 21, 2014 (UTC)
'More' information sometimes is not necessary. I followed the old saying: "if it ain't broken, don't fix it.
- Theon: redundant. And mentioning the castration way ahead of time alters the mood of the summary, that should go from the 'generic' torture, then the mind games, then more mind games, the castration, and the renaming into 'Reek'.
- House Targaryen: If we place "unknown" in the founder section we should add 'unknown' to each article on a house without known founder. Its moot and, again, redundant. You also made a change so 'the East' became 'the Essos'
- If you see, we try to avoid the term 'Humans' because its never used in the show.
- In 'Mhysa', to be honest I undid your edit because I wanted to rewrite some parts. If you see I also altered: "Sandor 'The Hound' Clegane" because such wording is never employed in the show.
--Gonzalo84 (talk) 16:39, March 21, 2014 (UTC)
You didn't "correct" the sentences, you simply reworded them to your liking - without adding new information. Or, when you did add new information, it was too redundant.
Specific example Gonzalo84 already mentioned: The first part of "Theon Season 3" should contain the summary "Theon is tortured by Ramsay"...then describe in chronological order what happened. Instead, you inserted "including cutting off his fingers and castrating him"...which is redundant with the body of the section itself.
Putting "unknown" into the templates for "Founder"...was not "actual work". You only just joined and don't know how templates work; we'd have explained this if you asked. We leave founder blank if "we the audience" don't know who it was, but the characters within the narrative know who the founders of their Houses were.
As Gonzalo84 pointed out, we don't use "humans" on here; no one in the books or TV series uses "humans", they say "people", because non-human races are incredibly rare and believed extinct - and when they DO discuss say, the White Walkers, they talk about the "threat to the realms of men" not "humans".
I myself use "Sandor 'The Hound' Clegane" when first introducing him in an article, just so casual fans know what we're talking about, but I wouldn't use it repeatedly.
"All of your work" was 11 edits. That isn't that many reversions. The edits were not targeted because you made them or something, but judged on a case by case basis.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 19:31, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
I just gave Ardilaun a one week temp ban for several problems, which I have explained on his talk page. I really need you to weigh in on this. I hope I handled this well but if you disagree I will defer to your decision.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 02:10, March 23, 2014 (UTC)
Tommen and Dean-Charles Chapman Articles
"Must Watch" Videos
This unsightly blemish has made a reappearance on some pages today. I want to complain to Wikia directly, and make it clear that we want this thing gone before S4 premiers. Just making sure we are all of one mind regarding this?-- 13:47, March 25, 2014 (UTC)
- It showed up again a few days ago. I completely agree with you.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 15:58, March 25, 2014 (UTC)
How "Objects" category works
"Books" are a subcategory of "Objects". Does a single Book article, such as "Book of Brothers", get both the "Books" and "Objects" categories added to it, or just the "Books" category? The book articles are not currently consistent on this.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 03:20, April 1, 2014 (UTC)
- Hmmm I'll defer to your judgment.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 05:44, April 1, 2014 (UTC)
- Well, currently, "Arya Stark" is in the "Characters from the North" category but not the wider "Characters from Westeros" category, and "Syrio Forel" is in "Characters from Braavos" but not "Characters from Essos". It stands to reason that "Books" alone is enough for a Book article, not both "Books" and "Objects".--The Dragon Demands (talk) 05:49, April 1, 2014 (UTC)
RED ALERT: HBO Viewer's Guide has been rebuilt from scratch
The HBO Viewer's Guide has been rebuilt from the ground up. As Westeros.org pointed out, it is very "Web 3.0" -- blatantly designed for use on iPhones more than ease of use on laptops. You have to scroll down using a mousewheel, instead of convenient browser bars....at the least, it functions more smoothly than Season 2's did in some parts (The Appendix stopped working when Season 3 premiered and continued that way until this week). Well, the navigation is a little weird (obviously meant for iPhone scrolling) but not the worst in the world once you get a feel for it.
Let me be clear: they retroactively revised the entire thing, Seasons 1, 2, and 3.
I remember when the updated Viewer's Guide for Season 3 was released; it was the same day that Season 3 premiered, and it was a little buggy for a few days while they refined it. I'm hoping the problems I have with it now will thus be smoothed over in the next week.
They have gutted all of the secondary noble House heraldry. The Karstarks, the Reynes, etc. all of that is gone.
The map has been completely updated from scratch. It's pretty ugly now, actually. An added feature is that you can zoom in on it now for more information points which don't appear in the worldview.
Again, maybe this is buggyness due to the new rollout: there is no "Season 3" homepage, at the moment you have to access everything episode by episode.
A good point I guess is that all of those "Inside the Episode" HBO-Go videos are now offered FOR FREE in the Viewer's Guid, in a convenient menu for each episode. So they've got that going for them.
Unfortunately, they continue to use the map which is not the same as Lands: actually it's fairly close up until Vaes Dothrak and Qarth, but afterwards it shows the Jade Sea as extending north when it actually extends south in Lands of Ice and Fire. Also, certain locations such as Bayasabhad have simply disappeared.
It's also odd that they don't list Oldtown on a map at all. Norvos and Qohor are also gone....even from the Season 1 episode 4 page, when Jorah even specifically says "I'm going to Qohor but will catch up in a few days."
One of the bigger problems is that THEY DO NOT HAVE A MASTER LIST OF HOUSES. Maybe because I'm stuck in episode-by-episode mode now.
But I think their concern was that complete noob TV-only viewers who get very confused would lost track of all of the Houses if they were in a big list -- such as, why include House Arryn in a list all the time? Fair enough.
So what they do is only list the major Houses "featured" in a given episode. I.e. they don't put an icon linking to "House Tully" or "House Greyjoy". Now Tully and Greyjoy pages DO exist, they just streamlined the menu to only show those important in a given episode (which do rotate throughout the season). Again, there was some justification in this because they list the "featured" ones.
I'm probably being too harsh; it's because I'm locked-in under a specific episode. They haven't finished making the "Season 3 homepage" which probably lists all of them.
At any rate the above are fairly minor problems: though I wonder, if they were redrawing the map FROM SCRATCH, making an entirely new drawing of the map, why bother to continue to recopy the incorrect one from Seasons 2-3? It's not as if the TV show itself got contracted by anything east of Vaes Dothraki or Qarth!
So the navigation is a bit annoying with the slider, though you adapt to that, and in any case they haven't finished the main page (why wouldn't they have a family tree for the Karstarks?)--The Dragon Demands (talk) 23:29, April 1, 2014 (UTC)
Anyway it's a good thing we've had plenty of time to pick the viewer's guide clean for heraldry that doesn't appear anywhere else.
One big complaint is that....it doesn't easily distinguish between the rival sub-branches of "House Baratheon". You see the old Season 3 one had a homepage with each king on it, a nice big picture of each king along with it, and actually titled "The King on the Iron Throne" or "The King in the Narrow Sea".
The new one lists each of these by a House name, but with maybe limited space or something, EACH is called just "House Baratheon".
Going back to early Season 2, there are actually three icons that say simply "House Baratheon" - though they do have each of the three different sets of heraldry. Titles such as "The King in the Narrow Sea" are used only as subheaders.
Why not just call them "House Baratheon of King's Landing" and "House Baratheon of Dragonstone"?
Anyway there were a few errors here and there:
"Aegon Targaryen" is mispelled "Aegon Targaryena" with an accent (probably a typo)
The "House Tyrell" page's family tree uses the "House Baratheon of King's Landing" heraldry for Renly Baratheon!  (probably just a simple mistake; they do use his correct heraldry on the Season 2 House Tyrell page: http://viewers-guide.hbo.com/game-of-thrones/season-2/episode-3/houses/11/house-tyrell
But now they give different quotes for each character's bio page which update each season (different quote for Jon Snow Season 1 and Jon Snow Season 2).
I do find it extremely offensive that someone chose for Loras's Season 3 bio pagequote, "A sword-swallower through and through" -- even if limited to season 3 quotes, wouldn't Sansa's "He's quite a fighter" from "Kissed by Fire" been much more appropriate? The quote they picked was crass (I lampshade that Olenna was just being very blunt in private).
The House Frey family tree was already a mess on the season 3 site, we'll wait until Season 4 updates (this revision to seasons 1-3 was mostly....cosmetic. Didn't change info really).
Only points of note from the Appendices are that it states the Alchemists' Guildhall is under Rhaenys's Hill, and have an entry for the Iron Bank of Braavos (they don't use possessive S with words that end in "S" like Stannis, but I've checked and the books do....for a long time I thought it was the other way around, but I'm slowly fixing this as I encounter it on the wiki).
Otherwise, they didn't update to include Martyn or Willem Lannister (again, neither did the older version). They *did* add in some better photos of Shireen Baratheon, who was barely featured with a fuzzy earlier photo in the original Season 3 Viewer's Guide.
We have one massive problem: The people who wrote the Viewer's Guide update now list her as "Sansa Lannister" in both the Lannister and Stark pages.
I say we should just plain ignore that - they also mis-use "Cersei Baratheon" instead of "Cersei Lannister" etc. I think we shouldn't assume the TV continuity is different on her name from this supplementary thing alone.....wait until on-screen dialogue says it or not in the Season 4 premiere.
I mean, the same Viewer's Guide under "Talisa Maegyr" spells it as "Volantine"...with an "i", instead of "Volantene".
So major changeups to the Viewer's Guide.
MAYBE this will improve when they have the actual Season 3 homepage done, which will list all.
- The House Stark family tree lists Sansa as Sansa Stark.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 00:01, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
- Greatjon Umber is called Jon "Greatjon" Umber.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 00:05, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
- Truth be told, the mistakes of the Viewer's Guide are of little concern to me. Remember how we corrected them once?--Gonzalo84 (talk) 00:22, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
- Eh, the mistakes weren't major. I just like picking over them. The "Sansa Lannister" thing was the only real point of note so far. Wait, when did we correct them?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 00:27, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
- There was a mention in the appendix that Rodrik Greyjoy died trying to assault King's Landing. Someone here, I don't remember who, told Werthead, he got in contact with HBO and HBO fixed the appendix.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 00:47, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
- Perhaps we could have Werthead contact Cogman and clarify if he had any input in the Viewer's Guide.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 14:40, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
- In this instance I think it was probably intentional. With Littlefinger up to his elbows in the Vale's power play it makes sense to just give the Riverlands to the Freys, for simplicity's sake. It was hinted at in the "Histories and Lore" segment for them, with Catelyn wondering out loud if Walder's delay in reaching the Trident was a deliberate ploy to aid Rhaegar's forces in destroying the Tullys.-- 16:29, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
The prisoner symbol used in the battle infoboxes doesn't really show up well in the actual articles: Captured.png
Viewed within an article I don't think readers can tell it has a chain attached to it.
- Alright, go ahead.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 05:20, April 3, 2014 (UTC)
Institutes vs Organizations
We never really well-defined the difference between "Institutions" and "Organizations" so to make things easier to find I've just removed the Institutions category entirely.
A separate problem: "Organizations" has subcategories, like "Military organizations" and "Religious organizations".
Well, like "Characters" and "Season 1 characters"... or locations. They belong in both categories I think.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 14:49, April 3, 2014 (UTC)
I did this to aid navigation: as for other things like "Red Priest" or "King", those fit in under "Titles". Anything that's an "Institution" but not an "Organization", I think, is inherently a "Title". "Grand Maester" for example is a title within an organization, not a separate "institution". The definitions were too vague, and it actually makes it easier to find them if they're all under one big category of "Organization".--The Dragon Demands (talk) 16:39, April 3, 2014 (UTC)
Locations vs Geography
We need to get this sorted out: http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:The_Dragon_Demands#Locations_category
The way AWOIAF does this is that everything is under the overall heading "Geography", while "Oldtown" goes under "Places in the Reach".
- I like Geography more... it has a more "in-universe" feel... while we are at this, I must tell you I'll be rather busy these days. I'll mostly come in to create new articles following each episode and make my trademark conjecture articles whenever a possible book character shows up but isn't mentioned by name.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 19:47, April 3, 2014 (UTC)
- Ostensibly I've got language tests to prep for as well, I just feel like I don't have control on anything if I at least don't have some here. My goal of rewatching Seasons 1 to 3 start to finish has obviously been abandoned, but I hope to at least keep pace starting in Season 4. QueenBuffy said she might miss all of Season 4 without an HBO account; will you be less busy at some point?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 20:10, April 3, 2014 (UTC)
- In two weeks I'll be more free.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 20:13, April 3, 2014 (UTC)
Season 4 premiere
Think of it: only 2 hours until Season 4 begins. Then the floodgates open. To say nothing of the horde of vandals, the massive amount of new work, we'll have dozens or even hundreds of random editors coming on making sloppy edits.
This will consume us, as you remember back in Season 3.
Good to be alongside you guys trying to handle this oncoming horde.
Have no illusions: not all of us will make it through premiere night alive.
The enemy is at the gates.
He who stands with me shall be my brother.
I stand ready my brother. Let's open the gates--Gonzalo84 (talk) 02:05, April 7, 2014 (UTC)
Ack. So many people were trying to login to HBO Go for the premiere that there was massive lag and I only managed to finish watching it by midnight. I did keep handwritten notes though, updating now...--The Dragon Demands (talk) 14:59, April 7, 2014 (UTC)
- Not really, it would be like moving Cersei or Margaery to "Baratheon". --Gonzalo84 (talk) 18:31, April 7, 2014 (UTC)
Tower of Joy
The pages of the Book of Brothers which are visible actually establish how Arthur Dayne and the other Kingsguard died at the Tower of Joy.
- Good look my friend. In the meantime I'll make a vague article titled "Showdown in the Red Mountains" without spoiling too much from the books.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 16:02, April 8, 2014 (UTC)
Season 4 page protection
Hi Gonzalo. Any chance of either updating the season 4 page now that Two Swords has aired or reducing the protection on the Season 4 page to registered users so one of us can do it. Things like updating the cast who have been on screen, moving Diana Rigg back to guest cast (since she apparently wasn't promoted as expected), puting in the image for Two Swords and the viewers rating (6.64 million according to wikipedia, wow). Nothing too major but it would be nice to fix it up a little. Rachel P 22:37, April 8, 2014 (UTC)
Also remove the TBC from the Season 5 link. It has been now commissioned along with Season 6. :)
Upcoming Community Videos
I'm Brian and I work with Wikia. I'd like to talk to you about a bit of video programming we have planned for the Game of Thrones community, and maybe being a part of it. Would you mind dropping me a line on my wall or by email at firstname.lastname@example.org when you have a sec? Thanks!!
--Brian 18:02, April 9, 2014 (UTC)
I want to ban RConley1 (http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:Rconley1?diff=128209&oldid=128208) - he's being very disruptive, has no idea how our spoilers policy works, and he hasn't actually contributed anything. He's been "harassing the Admins" enough and ignoring direct warnings that I suggest he just be banned outright. What do you think?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:23, April 20, 2014 (UTC)
- I think it's a good idea to involve a neutral third party at this point. Here's my account of what has happened. First, TheDragonDemands perma-banned me for participating in an existing discussion about site spoiler policy. Then, after he unbanned me, I created an entirely factual account on my own talk page about what happened and invited him to either correct me on my version of the facts or to apologize. Instead, he has removed what I wrote and protected my profile and talk page. If those blocks are undone and TheDragonDemands leaves me alone, I make the following pledges:
- 1. I will never directly contact TheDragonDemands again.
- 2. I will not advertise my documentation of his unilaterally perma-banning me.
- 3. If you can point me to a specific rule that forbids me from engaging in a discussion about site spoiler policy, I will follow the letter and the spirit of that rule.
- 4. I will strive to contribute usefully to the wiki in whatever way I can, given my limited knowledge. I write for a living and can often find grammatical mistakes, at least.
- In addition, I'd like to express in good faith that I have voiced my opinion on the site's spoiler policy and I'm satisfied in that regard. I do not intend, at this point, to pursue the matter of spoiler policy any further. At this point, all I want is to be able to factually document, on my own talk page, what I believe to be a wrongful ban and harassment at the hands of TheDragonDemands. Thank you, and I'm sorry that this matter is now drawing in other admins. Rconley1 (talk) 19:10, April 20, 2014 (UTC)
You haven't actually contributed anything. Your sole purpose for coming onto here was to complain that we prominently say that Joffrey died on the front page - the rest has been days of effort to harass me.
Major question I have: you never had a Wikia account before. You never edited anything with the "RConley1" username, though you followed Admins from here to Downton Abbey Wiki, Buffy Wiki, to complain. A smarter man would have simply started over from scratch and picked a new screename, given that you haven't actually made any edits with your week old account. So why do you keep trying to have it unbanned? Wounded pride?
"Sorry this matter is now drawing in other Admins"? Liar. You attempted to contact Gonzalo84 days ago via the Buffy Wiki. You were the one who "dragged in other Admins".
- Your banning me, harassing me, and preventing me from factually documenting that ban and harassment on my own talk page are all unfair, and I wish for my user page to reflect all that until and unless you apologize.
- I am sorry that you are preventing me from discussing this matter in an appropriate place, such as my own talk page!
- This would be over and you would never hear from me again if you could live with your unfair actions being written down on a lowly, unknown user's talk page, but apparently you can't. If you stand by what you've done, then why is it so important to you that my talk page not reflect that?? Rconley1 (talk) 19:27, April 20, 2014 (UTC)
You fail to understand: I told you I would unban your account, on the condition that you simply go back to regular editing, and never discuss your complaints about the spoiler policy again. Making a long list on your talk page saying you felt wrongly slighted at a temp ban...directly violated the order I gave you not to mention your original complaint. I erased this because I specifically ordered you not to write anything like that. Do you comprehend that you violated a direct order after promising that if I unbanned you, you would behave?
- Show me where I promised anything to you in exchange for undoing your wrongful ban. Show me. I specifically refused your offer over and over. Also, now you're calling your ban a "temp ban"? Really? You had every intention of making it permanent. You even banned my damn IP address like some spammer so that I couldn't create another account, forcing me to take my case to other wikis. Rconley1 (talk) 19:46, April 20, 2014 (UTC)
(Reading through your post against me)...you buffoon. You cited the time I asked for a group vote to ban LovelyChrys as an example of me "pioneering" the practice of permanently banning people from the cite? Major vandals? I'm not the first Admin to come up with the idea of permanently banning disruptive people.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 19:43, April 20, 2014 (UTC)
- I said that because Opark77 said "we've never permanently banned a user" in response to your proposal to do exactly that. A reasonable deduction, I think, but I can remove that part if you want, even without specific proof that I'm wrong. Anything else you'd care to rebut? (I think we can both do without the name-calling, though.) BTW, I'm happy to continue this discussion on my own talk page, where it belongs, if you unprotect it.
- Please consider my four specific pledges above, which I think give you the vast majority of what you want. All that will remain of this fiasco is a documentation of what you did to me on a talk page that probably no one will ever read. You can even have your own section to rebut my account of the facts. I really think the offer is quite reasonable. Rconley1 (talk) 20:09, April 20, 2014 (UTC)
I unbanned your account because you complained, but at the same time I left you with an admonishment that if you complained again about this I would ban you again.
Technically, you never overtly promised anything, but you tacitly functioned under this condition when I unbanned your account and warned you as such, hoping you would simply let the matter drop. Perhaps I was wrong to remove your original ban?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 19:57, April 20, 2014 (UTC)
- "I said that because Opark77 said "we've never permanently banned a user" in response to your proposal to do exactly that."....he said that nearly TWO YEARS AGO. I wasn't even an Administrator at the time. Opark77 doesn't actively contribute to this wiki anymore. Do you actually bother to read through any of this?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 20:16, April 20, 2014 (UTC)
- Rconley1 has done nothing to warrant a block of any duration, let alone a permanent ban. Also, it's completely unacceptable to prevent a user who isn't banned from editing their own talk and user page... much less to attempt to ruin the show for them by violating the very same spoiler policy that you're both arguing over on their own page. Pasting the spoiler policy onto his user page, and then locking it... insulting him... this is appalling behaviour, Dragon, and you of all people should know better.-- 20:45, April 20, 2014 (UTC)
- As far as I can tell, "harassment" in this case means carefully and factually documenting what has occurred on my own talk page. Rconley1 (talk) 21:26, April 20, 2014 (UTC)
- He is not "harassing" you, and he will not be banned. Now, please draw a line under this sorry debacle. Rconley1, you're welcome to your opinions, but I'd encourage you to actively contribute if you want them to be taken seriously.-- 21:49, April 20, 2014 (UTC)
There has been some miscommunication here and I'm not entirely sure what RConley1 was actually intending; please see my comments on his talk page.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 22:03, April 20, 2014 (UTC)
- TDD has apologized for banning me and admitted that he mistook someone else's comments for mine. That's all I ever requested in order to take down my account of what happened, and so I have honored my promise, even though I think maybe this site would be well-served by documentation of the abuse to which I was subjected. My only hope is that the next person to cross his path is treated with a tiny bit more respect and consideration than they otherwise would receive due to my efforts here. Thank you, TDD, for your apology. I accept. Rconley1 (talk) 22:53, April 20, 2014 (UTC)
Hello! My name is Sam and I just wanted to say that I am new to the Wiki, I am a huge GOT fan, And hope we can talk about it please message me back ;D
I was trying to edit Ygritte but it is protected. Season 3 addition: Thanks!
Kat "Stopping to rest and tend to his injuries after fleeing the wildlings, Jon Snow finds himself confronted by a furious Ygritte, who has an arrow ready to shoot him. Jon tries to talk Ygritte out of shooting him, insisting that he still loves her but that she should have known his loyalty to the Watch was never gone. Though his feelings are clearly reciprocated Ygritte is still angered by his betrayal and shoots Jon three times with her bow as he flees from her, watching him go with tears in her eyes."
- Hello Samuel, I will now add this new information to the Ygritte page. Create a account and you will be able to edit on more pages! :) -- The Snow Prince (talk) 21:20, April 21, 2014 (UTC)
Bowen Marsh/Othell Yarwyck
Greater Good 22:41, April 22, 2014 (UTC)
- I suspect they realized that if Bowen Marsh was indeed in the expedition north of the Wall, he'd be dead - given that the TV version gives Jon, Sam, Grenn, and Dolorous Edd as the only survivors.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 00:35, April 27, 2014 (UTC)
Wiki acting slow
I can't open history tabs to see history or Protect pages; images are displaying weird and fuzzy (or zoomed in), and contents menus aren't loading. Is anyone else having these problems?
I'm juggling a lot of tasks: my final language test to get my medieval degree is next week. This has slowed me down the past three weeks but I contributed what I could. What do you feel are the most important tasks to focus on right now?
- I'm also having these problems in Chrome, but not Firefox. Wikia also keeps refusing to publish my edits... the editor just reloads with a message at the top saying "your changes haven't been saved", or something like that.-- 11:24, April 27, 2014 (UTC)
- I'm having trouble with high quality images. They load in low quality.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 22:07, April 27, 2014 (UTC)
I've been gone for a few days because I had to take my last language test. I've passed everything, my thesis is finally done, it's all over. I now have a Master's degree in medieval history. I'll be back on the wiki more often now - I was barely around for the first four episodes of season 4, I'll try to catch up.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 03:39, May 2, 2014 (UTC)
Benioff and Weiss are consciously ignoring feedback
I can sympathize with their point that "we don't read messageboards, because the comments are weighted to irate fanboys and might not reflect true feedback, or if only 1 out of 10 comments is negative it disproportionately affects your creative process later".
Well and good. But HOW LONG have we lived "with the internet" and viewer feedback. I'm not talking about pandering to messageboards....what about when *official reviews* by newspapers or Entertainment Weekly and such say "Talisa Maegyr was an incredibly dumb idea"? There was even a "roundtable of noteworthy reviewers and critics" organized by T. Sean Collins.
The hypocrisy of it all is that Bryan Cogman makes it a point to use twitter feedback now (starting again in Season 4), does fansite Q&A, etc.
The trick is....DO NOT randomly jump onto messageboard threads! Read the major critical reviews! If nothing else WEsteros.org's semi-authoritative reviews (albeit I never agree with them on the Tyrells).
The "trick" of "judging viewer response" is when something consistently pops up (again "Talisa isn't a good idea", or "female viewers are annoyed that you removed any political agency from Catelyn Stark and reduced her to whining about her babies instead of a tough as nails politician".
I have, of course, seen other TV series which disintegrated because they started pandering to the online rabid fanbase which didn't reflect reality (I remember how in late Battlestar Galatica, the show falling apart around them, the writers still found time to spur-of-the-moment insert messageboard in-jokes or tumblr gags....then act as if this meant they were "paying attention" to the concerns of the fanbase, ignoring how the rest of the series was spiraling out of control).
That's what I made the god-damned Cargo Cult for. That's why this is the business we have chosen for ourselves; the hope that pointing out factual things about the show on this wiki will in turn inform the larger fanbase as a whole. And with nearly 2 million hits a day since season 4 began, I really like to think that we're doing something.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 17:42, May 5, 2014 (UTC)
Joffrey Baratheon protection
Thanks for the heads up. I'm glad to contribute.
Busy in first half of Season 4
Ack, I'm back now. I was busy finishing my thesis and passing my Latin and French placement tests, but they're completely done now. I was also busy with preparing for graduation stuff this month (I will now hold a Master's degree in medieval History) - but I'm finally free to be on the wiki more; I did what I could, with the new front page navigation and stuff, but I've largely been in "standby mode" and I need to go back over the first five episodes worth of stuff.
We've been shorthanded for the workload (with QueenBuffy losing her HBO access, and Werthead...) so I'm starting by going into "see all edits" back through April 6th. Starting with "see only anonymous edits" (though there are something like 2,000 of those). Just to check for vandalism that slipped through the cracks.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 19:04, May 11, 2014 (UTC)
- Sorry for my continued low activity: now that I've graduated (and hold a Master's degree in medieval History, yay!) I had to move into my new place. I've been pushing furniture around and unboxing the past few days. I will make use of the Memorial Day holiday weekend to catch up. Is there anything major that needs work immediately? There is quite a backlog and I was hoping Werthead would catch up on some of this stuff. Well, I at least kept the handwritten notes when I was watching the episodes; I'm going to have a rewatch maratheon.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 21:44, May 23, 2014 (UTC)
Images now have a "posted by" watermark
I have no idea.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 21:49, May 23, 2014 (UTC)
Yes, sorry about my sudden surge of photos. I just wanted to add some much needed updating to some of the various character pages in order to add depth. It was just bothering me for some odd reason, haha. I replaced the one File:Sansamarg photo with better cropping :) for some reason I was having trouble simply replacing the image. Again, sorry! MR.Flix (talk) 00:15, May 19, 2014 (UTC)
How are we handling people who are "From" one place but live somewhere else? Missandei is "From" Naath, but also "From" Slaver's Bay because she's lived there a long time. Similarly Grey Worm was "from" the Summer Islands in the sense that he was taken as a baby in a slaving raid, but he grew up in Slaver's Bay. I thought it would aid navigation to just add both categories to an article.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 23:16, May 23, 2014 (UTC)
- Well, I was following the example set by Xaro Xhoan Daxos article: just from the Summer Isles. He's listed as "Qartheen" because he's culturally a Qartheen. If we add Missandei and Grey Worm to "from Slaver's Bay", shouldn't we also add Dany to "from the Free Cities"?--Gonzalo84 (talk) 05:26, May 24, 2014 (UTC)
No, I don't know for certain that that's him, but he was always Gregor's squire in the books.Greater Good 18:34, June 2, 2014 (UTC)
Family tree templates
Timeline policy discussion
Please give your views on this: http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Forum:GoTWiki_Small_Council_meeting_1:_Timeline_and_Current_Date
Is IMDb a reliable source? The last two episode are added to creditboxes on Stannis Baratheon and Davos Seaworth page by User:The Snow Prince, bacause IMDb says so.--Mesmermann (talk) 12:57, June 6, 2014 (UTC)
- It is not a reliable source... they were listing Ralf Kenning as appearing on the last episode.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 19:21, June 6, 2014 (UTC)
- Indeed.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 23:43, June 8, 2014 (UTC)
Sigils in battle and war infoboxes
I know the sigils go on the left on wikipedia, but on this wiki it made the infoboxes look very cluttered. --Greater Good 06:44, June 10, 2014 (UTC)
Season 4 finale
The Season 4 finale is upon us. The internet is going to explode after this one, on par with or surpassing the Red Wedding or Ned Stark's death. Enough traffic that the site itself might slow to a crawl, much less all of the vandals or random anonymous editors who need to tinker with it.
The hordes are closing in.
Remember this day.
- Tonight we fight! and when the sun rises, GoT Wiki will stand! The Admin Watch will stand!--Gonzalo84 (talk) 06:00, June 16, 2014 (UTC)
Due to the absence of some our numbers were low in Season 4. I think we should add about two more Admins. Off the top of my head I was toying with suggesting Daemon Targaryen and Rachel P - if they felt up to it and if they would continue to edit enough to merit it. They're both reliable workers and (as far as I can tell) seem to approach the work seriously.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 21:16, June 16, 2014 (UTC)