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Enjoy your editing and please leave a message on my talk page if I can help with anything! -- QueenBuffy (Talk) 19:33, March 4, 2013

Alannys Greyjoy

Alannys Greyjoy is alive and well in the books (and the TV series). She withdrew from public life after her older 2 sons died, and she was never politically prominent, but she's "alive". Where did you get the idea that she was dead?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 19:08, March 5, 2013 (UTC)

The line Yara gives about having both loved their mother which wasn't a line of dialogue from the book series. Looking at it again, guess it isn't made as clear as thought that she's dead. Guess it's a question for the show runners, but seems imply she's dead since I think in the book series she's alive, but visiting her family when Theon arrives in Pyke and the TV version never mentions any of that while implied (granted maybe I'm over reading into it) that she's dead. Again this part is my take, but it would make sense within the show's universe that she's dead. CestWhat (talk) 20:47, March 5, 2013 (UTC)
Yara is only using the past tense to refer to when Theon lived with her in the past, not when their mother was alive in the past. Nothing is implied by Alannys not being there; similarly, in the books, Alannys was devastated after the deaths of her two eldest sons in the Greyjoy Rebellion and retired to her family's castle on Harlaw. Moreover, the HBO viewer's guide does not list Alannys as deceased, even though it lists other deceased characters:!/guide/houses/greyjoy/ --The Dragon Demands (talk) 21:06, March 5, 2013 (UTC)
I guess so. If there was anything to change from novel to screen, it would be that since Alannys' storyline (or lack there of) seems a bit weird and Theon kind of uncaring about his bio mom, especially since he is trying so hard to reconnect and impress his bio fam in the TV show. Theon doesn't seem to care to ask "oy where's me mum at" or anybody to tell her that he's back in the books. Obviously not my job, but if I were in the show, I'd have her written-off as dead. CestWhat (talk) 21:17, March 5, 2013 (UTC)

Btw, sorry if I've appeared rough; I just want to get it right the first time. You've just joined but you're doing a good job, keep up the good work.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 19:51, March 7, 2013 (UTC) That's nice of you to write.CestWhat (talk) 21:03, March 7, 2013 (UTC)

Complete Guide to Westeros

Stop saying "Blu-ray extra says..." in edit summaries, it sounds kind of informal; say "Complete Guide to Westeros". Just a pointless nitpick I know, but we're trying to present the "Complete Guide" as more than just "extras" (makes it sound like a trailer or something), because a lot of work and attention to detail went into them.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 19:35, March 7, 2013 (UTC)

Admit I was unsure how exactly the siting works and just figured somebody else would change it if it was what the usual standard was for articles. Plus I didn't think it mattered in the edit summary which can be a bit less formal then the articles themselves. Also "extra" doesn't have a negative connotations to me as it does for you and didn't imply otherwise. CestWhat (talk) 21:05, March 7, 2013 (UTC)

Deceased characters

In House or locations articles, deceased characters are mentioned between "{ }"... it comes from the books so keep it that way instead of adding "[deceased]".--Gonzalo84 (talk) 05:26, March 7, 2013 (UTC)

Downton Abbey

Hey CestWhat. I saw you over on the Downton Abbey Wiki. I recently finished Season 3 so I can edit there now. I also am going to try for Admin- figured I could help. Were you shocked about the finale? QueenBuffy35px-Pink crown 19:45, March 7, 2013 (UTC)

Urgh... the administers stuff. I admit I really only putting my name forward because the other guy, a real bully, was trying to be made admin solely to ban me from D.A. Wiki (that wasn't even my own take, he wrote exactly that). I got support from other contributors, but it didn't seem to the higher-ups at Central Wiki. CestWhat (talk) 21:03, March 7, 2013 (UTC)

House Reed

Good work on the House Reed family tree template. We have to wait until we get sigils for them. The hope was that for many Houses, we'll get updates when they release the Season 3 viewer's guide, but that usually happens the day of the season premiere.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 15:03, March 19, 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, that nice of you to write. It's a pretty safe that sigils will be the same as the one in the novels, but might as well just wait to confirm it. CestWhat (talk) 16:59, March 19, 2013 (UTC)
You misunderstand: of course they're the same as in the novels, i.e. the Lannisters are "a lion" -- but we can only use the specific lion design used by the TV show. The production videos explain that they went through hundreds of variants before settling on the final versions. We have to wait for the official artwork, then copy-paste it.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 19:46, March 19, 2013 (UTC)

Book spoilers

The whole Arya meeting a certain Dayne at some moment is a book spoiler. It has been removed from the Wylla article time and again yet you keep adding it back. I'll only say it once. BOOK SPOILERS FORBIDDEN. I hope you understand it.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 07:10, March 20, 2013 (UTC)

You're wrong about this. I put in the "milk brothers" stuff once awhile ago and that was it. Another contributor put it back in and the edit history confirms that here: CestWhat (talk) 15:41, March 20, 2013 (UTC)
In this one its you who adds it, I know its older. [1] --Gonzalo84 (talk) 16:13, March 20, 2013 (UTC)
I know, I admitted I added it once then you deleted off awhile ago and I didn't dispute it. You wrote today "yet you keep adding it back" which is untrue. Besides when I added the "milk brothers" stuff, the stuff about the meeting between Arya and so-n-so was already there so I didn't really "add it." CestWhat (talk) 16:45, March 20, 2013 (UTC)
You're right. I'm sorry. We're kinda edgy after some repeated vandals and users that don't seem to understand requests.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 02:20, March 21, 2013 (UTC)

Robb family tree image

You updated Jon Snow and Margaery's images with Season 3 pics. Yet with Robb you used another Season 1 picture. Why?. Also, you are replacing images but haven't bothered with correcting the summaries or categories. If you're going to take your time to do these improvements you gotta do the full job. FYI, I don't like that Robb image either but its the only one I found at the Wicnet tumblr that doesn't look grainy or too dark.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 16:26, March 21, 2013 (UTC)

I wrote at the top of the forum that I thought it was fine to wait for better pictures to come along. I just updated Margaery Tyrell since it was the most crappy. Jon Snow was just too give him a lot "Night's Watch" look. Robb Stark, there wasn't really any good pics from S3, but if it was going to be S1 pic, just thought it would be one that show Robb's light brown hair with that whole Tully look. CestWhat (talk) 05:53, March 22, 2013 (UTC)

Quotation marks around episode titles

When you cite episodes using reference tags, you still need to put the title in quotation marks.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 14:36, March 22, 2013 (UTC)

Spelling errors

You've been making a few spelling errors the last few days. You spelled "thief" as "theif", you forgot to say "his" in the Jaime article, and on The Crag you wrote "It's while he's away, The Jaime Lannister has been caught and returned to the camp." -- why would there be a "the" in front of "Jaime Lannister"? Be more careful about this, you make work for the Admins when you make basic mistakes like this.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 14:41, March 22, 2013 (UTC)

You are the types of an admins to check ever edit anyhow, so feel putting in some spelling mistakes make it feel worth your while. I messing, I'll try harder, although again, you are are REALLY getting rude and condescending about this stuff even if you aren't meaning to be. CestWhat (talk) 15:37, March 22, 2013 (UTC)
We only ask that you try, we understand that mistakes will be made. We had a lot of problems in the off-season when there weren't enough of us around to police this kind of thing, and we had that really bad user who ignored all spelling and grammar rules even when we begged him to stop (and even ignored direct orders to stop). His head now decorates a spike on my userpage. Really, though, don't worry about it too much; I'd rather you put in lots of content than slow down, but just keep in "proportionate" (two or three typos every 100 edits is to be expected).--The Dragon Demands (talk) 15:43, March 22, 2013 (UTC)

Westerlands vs Riverlands

What specific interview did they ever mention switching Westerlands and Riverlands? Maps say the Crag is in the Westerlands and they say they were there, other episodes say he's north of Ashemark. Making finding this a top priority (drop what you're doing and find it). Supplementary materials, i.e. Blu Ray features, Viewer's Guide, etc. can and have been wrong. In the strict sense that they contradict even on-screen dialogue.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 02:03, March 22, 2013 (UTC)

Dialogue takes precedence over supplementary materials. Period.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 04:01, March 22, 2013 (UTC)
Then dialogue shows The Crag is in the Riverlands. Blu-ray in-episode guide consistantly have The Crag in the Riverlands while has The Crag in the Westerlands.
I know where they talk about how S2 is in the Riverlands with Robb somewhere, but I can't find it. Robb's campaign is in the Riverlands.
It's been weird since S2 maps has The Crag in the Westerlands, yet in A Man Without Honor, when they're riding to find the Stark boys, Theon's dialogue to Lorren is that Robb's in the Riverlands. Yet in the same episode, Talisa and Robb talk about his going to The Crag to settle its surrender.
In this case, the Blu Ray in-guide guide isn't contradicting any dialogue since within the show, they never say The Crag is in the Westerlands, just in the novels. It would be weird to have that many mistakes since every Robb scene in any episode is shown on the in-guide as taking place in the Riverlands and never in the Westerlands.
Not a source that I'm using, but looking at that specific scenes between Talisa and Robb talking before he goes The Crag and when the Stark messenger, it sure looks like the Riverlands.
It isn't like Stark messenger is a major character (myself, I wish they had used Olyvar Frey just to say he's been on-screen even if it was some random actor). CestWhat (talk) 05:42, March 22, 2013 (UTC)
Although they never actually see them at The Crag so maybe Robb, Talisa and crew rode to The Crag in Westerlands and then rode back to the Riverlands? Seems odd, but they are gone for a day. CestWhat (talk) 05:56, March 22, 2013 (UTC)

...The "War of the Five Kings" involves multiple fronts: in the books, the Tullys under Brynden and Edmure hold the line of the Red Fork as skirmishes go back and forth in the southern Riverlands, and Roose Bolton attacks east along the Trident. Robb Stark, however, personally invades the Westerlands. Dialogue establishes that he is north of Ashemark. The people who make the Blu-ray special features aren't always the writers, and even then, they can make mistakes: they're not all that different from wiki-editors, and maybe one of them just mistakenly assumed that Robb is still in the Riverlands. People broadly, BROADLY speak about "Robb went south to the Riverlands" because that's where he STARTED with Whispering Wood, and a major front of the war continues there.

"Sure looks like the Riverlands" opposed to WHAT?! The Vale also "sure looks like the Riverlands".....they all film in Northern Ireland.

"They never say the Crag is in the Westerlands" -- MAPS THEY HAVE GIVEN, and which appear ON SCREEN, put the Crag in the Westerlands.

MOREOVER, in "The Prince of Winterfell" Tywin complains that "The wolf is at my doorstep" to which Kevan responds, "our scouts assure us Stark remains north of Ashemark"...AND...Tywin says that "Robb is too close to Casterly Rock".

Quite simply, on the Season 2 article, we should make a note that "The Blu-ray in-episode guide frequently mistakenly says Robb is in the Riverlands even though on-screen dialogue establishes that he isn't".

Gonzalo84, I don't have the Season 2 Blu-ray handy. Someone needs to check out this in-episode guide to see if there are any other mistakes.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 14:52, March 22, 2013 (UTC)

You got mad at me and wrote to about how just calling it "Blu-ray extras" because of all the hard work that goes into and now you are accusing them of making a constant mistake in every episode. Again, Tywin is just supposing Robb could be at Casterly Rock without it being true. It's an exaggeration for effect. There isn't one dialogue quote that ever says "We are in the  Westerlands" or anything close to it but there are for being in the Riverlands. It looks like the Riverlands because they are right next the giant river. Which map on-screen? I'm not assuming, I'm going with what the show, not the books, is telling us. CestWhat (talk) 15:41, March 22, 2013 (UTC)

...Many places have "gentle rivers". King's Landing is next to "a river" and it isn't in the Riverlands. Time and effort went into the Complete Guide to Westeros because Bryan Cogman wrote it. We're not as sure about on-screen popups in the Blu-ray. Thank you for alerting us to this though, we need to check it out.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 15:44, March 22, 2013 (UTC)

Oh, this map:
Westerlands on-screen map

I took the screenshot from "The Wolf and the Lion", but it's the same map they use in other episodes.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 15:46, March 22, 2013 (UTC)

There are two separate things here. Is The Crag in the Westerlands and is Robb Stark's army is in the Westerlands. The first being true doesn't make the other. He rides and takes a whole day to get to The Crag and back. The Crag isn't next to any rivers, it's seaside and that isn't the sea they are filming at, but the same old river.
I know I remember them talking about switching the Westerlands invasion into the Riverlands instead and I'm not asking for a "take my word for it"-type of citing. Northern Ireland can sub for a lot of places, but they felt it was one too many. But even without that, there are other things, Blu-ray in-episode guide, dialogue, (Theon saying for one) to show that isn't the Westerlands, but Riverlands. CestWhat (talk) 16:16, March 22, 2013 (UTC)

Well, as you said if we don't use "take my word on it", can you cite specific examples in a list here; of in-episode dialogue (what did Theon say?)...and we've already said dialogue trumps a Blu-ray in episode guide, but what does that guide say exactly? They aren't at "The Crag" when they're walking by a river. That happened the previous episode; apparently they road there and back off-screen. There are rivers in the Westerlands. It would take a longer time than a single day to leave the Westerlansd from the Crag...and Tywin's dialogue from episode 8 establishes that Robb is relatively near Casterly Rock, north of Ashemark. Yes, they did simplify the dialogue to a degree - they don't announce "we're in the Westerlands now" and the Battles of the Fords with Edmure Tully haven't been mentioned so far. But other dialogue establishes for the observant fan what's going on. You really need to find that interview or commentary where they describe "switching" something; was it Blu-ray commentary? This is top priority, drop what you're doing to find it. Please. I know this is asking you to waste time finding it, but it does seem to be the crux of the matter.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 16:34, March 22, 2013 (UTC)

"Northern Ireland can sub for a lot of places, but they felt it was one too many. " -- Northern Ireland already subs for The North, The Vale, the Riverlands, the Iron Islands, and even the Dothraki Sea (some isolated area of NI). Why would the Westerlands suddenly be such a stretch?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 16:36, March 22, 2013 (UTC)

Theon says, "Robb's in the Riverlands" in Prince of Winterfell. CestWhat (talk) 16:43, March 22, 2013 (UTC)
Theon knows that Robb road south to the Riverlands and last he saw him, he was at Riverrun. Theon left before he invaded the Westerlands. Theon is away in the Iron Islands and then at Winterfell, where he has even less information. 1 - Theon is away from southern Westeros and thus doesn't hear much general information about the war down south, 2 - he is speaking broadly that "Robb isn't in the north, he road south to the Riverlands" at first. Tywin on the other hand, would be expected to make such a decision. This is sound reasoning; assuming the Crag was moved to the Riverlands until I produced a map proving otherwise is not. Any other dialogue?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 16:49, March 22, 2013 (UTC)
The line is just "Robb is in the Riverlands" present tense and Theon knows Robb plans and it's pretty hard to say he does or doesn't know that without backing it without other dialogue. You're are putting a lot of your own interpretation of that line to make it fit not backing up the in-episode guide. CestWhat (talk) 17:03, March 22, 2013 (UTC)
...Theon is speaking broadly. You are forcing your own interpretation by fixating on minor dialogue while ignoring things such as when Tywin rather directly says that Robb is in the northern Westerlands. Wha--we don't need to back up a vaunted "episode guide". Even the online HBO Viewer's Guide is wrong sometimes. The Complete Guide to Westeros was written by Cogman so it had the attention of a "bonus episode", but the other materials, not so much. Yes, we can and have dismissed those because they contradict dialogue. What exactly does this guide say anyway?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 17:14, March 22, 2013 (UTC)
"speaking broadly" isn't the same as being wrong, which is your interpretation. I'm not interpreting the line, I'm taking as it's delivered without extra meaning or being out-of-date. In-episode has a location marker for every scene and any scene at Robb's camp is shown as being in The Riverlands. The whole point of the Tywin scene is that he and his commanders doesn't know where Robb's army actually is. One is saying this, and Tywin is saying he could be at another place for all they know. CestWhat (talk) 19:11, March 22, 2013 (UTC)\

Again, I need another Admin to check this out on the Blu-ray.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 19:25, March 22, 2013 (UTC)

Robb is initially in the Riverlands (when Theon leaves), then he's in the Westerlands. The camp keeps moving as Robb's host goes further into the Westerlands. First Oxcross (in the Westerlands), then Ashemark (in the Westerlands), and finally the Crag (in the Westerlands).

Why the Westerlands?:

  • Ashemark is part of the Westerlands. Why? Because Lord Damon Marbrand of Ashemark is mentioned as a liege lord of Tywin Lannister.
  • The Crag SURRENDERS to Robb. That means they are not Riverlords. And to imply that they might be "iron throne loyalists" who surrender to Robb would be speculation upon speculation.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 20:59, March 22, 2013 (UTC)
Again, this isn't the issue. Where is Robb's camp when it's on-screen is the question, not The Crag or Ashemark. The Westerlands in the novels, but the Riverlands in the TV series. The dialogue and in-episode guide supports that. No dialogue within the show supports the Westerlands, just the maps and even then, The Crag isn't seen on-screen and it's actually far away from Robb's camp. Another thing, if Tywin was fighting in the Westerlands like in the novels, he wouldn't have been Harrenhal for as long as he was. CestWhat (talk) 21:54, March 22, 2013 (UTC)

...Tywin was never in the Westerlands in the books, he was AT Harrenhal in the books. It was a multi-front war: Robb invaded the Westerlands specifically in an attempt to lure Tywin back to the Westerlands and away from the capital, partially in the hopes that this would leave the Baratheons free to take King's Landing. This plan failed due to miscommunication: Edmure Tully, leading the Riverlands "front" against Tywin's main army, didn't realize he was supposed to feint, and instead in the Battle of the Fords, held the line of Red Fork. In the books themselves, Tywin remains at Harrenhal for some time as his base, while the Tullys use Riverrun as a base; everything between God's Eye and Red Fork is a war zone. Please acknowledge that I have written this even if you disagree with it.

Now, in the books Robb does eventually return to Riverrun; indeed, if the funeral of Hoster Tully is in the season premiere, I think he returns to Riverrun for that. But did the TV series announce he had returned to Riverrun?

Okay, better question: please list all episodes where the "in-episode guide" on the Blu-ray says that Robb is in the Westerlands. You say it's when Robb and Talisa are walking together in episode 8 of Season 2. Was it in other episodes?

"No dialogue supports them being in the Riverlands."?!?!??! within that same episode, Tywin Lannister in episode 8 clearly says that Robb's army is supposedly north of Ashemark, which is in the Westerlands. Yes, "dialogue" establishes this. Acknowledge that I have written this even if you disagree with it.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 22:51, March 22, 2013 (UTC)

Kevan: Scouts assure that Robb Stark remains north of Ashemark
Tywin: (chuckles) The last time a scout assured us of Stark's movements, he lured us into a trap.
The point of "north of Ashemark" taken with Tywin's next line is that they don't really know where Robb's army is at all and he's berating the guy. "In the books" is all well and good, but none of that luring and Edmure Tully stuff is established within the TV series and "Robb's in the Riverlands" in Ep. 8 dialogue. Every single episode where Robb's camp is shown, in-guide shown it as being in the Riverlands, not just once or twice. It's never once shown as being in the Westerlands. CestWhat (talk) 23:06, March 22, 2013 (UTC)
Is the "In-episode Guide" a map, or just text? Theon was speaking loosely about "The Riverlands". Even The Crag is shown to be in the Riverlands? And if not, what are we to expect, that the Crag is within a day's ride from the Riverlands?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 00:16, March 23, 2013 (UTC)
Both map and text with a general description on Riverlands. It's like any other one "Robb's in the Riverlands" isn't that general and why would the screenplay writer have it if you are staying it's off or out-of-date. Whatever The writers have some intention behind a line. CestWhat (talk) 00:41, March 23, 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for the link to a clip. Quite simply...the supplementary material can, and has been, simply wrong, contradicting even on-screen dialogue. This is NOT a difference between books and series, as Harrenhal was cut from Season 1 and Roose Bolton commanding the eastern army. The television show itself establishes that he *isn't* in the Riverlands. Conceptually, do you oppose this?

This happened before with the Season 2 Viewer's Guide map getting the location of Whispering Wood wrong.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 01:15, March 23, 2013 (UTC)

Yes, the screenwriters were just having Theon be vague about "the Riverlands" or "the South" in general. The writers don't always fact-check the Blu-ray extras.

Moreover, above I corrected you when you claimed that Tywin was fighting in the Westerlands in the didn't respond to this, you sort of just ignored it to try to hide your error. Respond to this point.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 01:17, March 23, 2013 (UTC)

"or the South"... Can't just make up what the line is to fit. You have really shown much to state that isn't wrong beyond maps and what happens in the novels. And even then, Ashemark and The Crag aren't the issue. Robb's army's location is. They didn't write a vague statement. It's pretty clear of where Robb is and you aren't just trying to make it vague. What they meant is what they wrote and "in the vague South." The part about Tywin fighting in the Westerlands or "the West" is in the ASOIAF wiki so take it up with them as well. There is no dialogue in the show stating Robb and his army is in the Westerlands. There is saying he's in the Riverlands. Besides, I don't want to get down a rabbit hole of what does and doesn't in the books and just stick to the TV series. Tywin marches "to the West" or the Westerlands or doesn't. What's at issue again is that Robb's army isn't in the Westerlands, but the Riverlands. CestWhat (talk) 01:36, March 23, 2013 (UTC)

Let me get this straight. Apart from an interview you claim to have heard once that said they changed it (which I will treat as a nonexistent phantom until otherwise proven):

  • The Blu-ray "in episode guide" popup says that Robb's army is in the Riverlands.
  • You think it is irrelevant that he's also mentioned as being near Ashemark and the Crag....even though they're in the Westerlands, far enough away from the Riverlands border that they can't simply casually hop across in a single day.
  • Theon, on the other side of the continent in the far North, vaguely says that Robb Stark took his army "to the Riverlands", without specifying "well, he went to the Riverlands, then the Westerlands"....even though there are Stark forces in the Riverlands even though Robb's army-group went west.....why would Theon specify such things when talking to his sister about his life-or-death attempts to hold Winterfell?
  • Despite repeatedly pointing out that Tywin says Robb is "north of Ashemark" - they never actually use the word "Westerlands" but do cite locations in the Westerlands - you insist that dialogue never establishes that he is in the Westerlands.
  • Theon was speaking of broad geographic regions, Tywin of specific locations within the Westerlands.

In short, you're upset that they don't preface every geographical reference with a zip code? "Stannis is heading for King's Landing in the Crownlands?", "Robb is heading for Ashemark, which is located in the Westerlands." etc?

You're fixating on a loosely phrased line of dialogue in which Theon says Robb went south to the Riverlands, "he's in the Riverlands" - which he was when Theon left. It is the general direction he went. ...yet at the same time, you are openly saying that even if Tywin's war-council says on-screen "Robb is at the Crag" or "Robb is north of Ashemark", the fact that they don't follow up by saying "which as we all know are in the Westerlands", because they didn't say the proper noun "the Westerlands" on screen, this somehow counts for nothing, even though Tywin is talking about Robb's specific troop movements, and Theon is speaking broadly about the fact that Robb left the North for elsewhere?

Why can't you fundamentally accept that Theon was speaking loosely? Or, that the Blu-ray special features are simply wrong sometimes? This is contradicted by other on-screen dialogue.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 03:14, March 23, 2013 (UTC)

Wait a minute, this might be important: I've heard of a "Battleground Westeros" feature on the Blu ray that is more in-depth than the online viewer's guide. What does that show of Robb's troop movements or battles?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 03:20, March 23, 2013 (UTC)

You're acting like it's this super vague ambiguous statement and totally discounting for no other reason then it doesn't fit with your personal take. You're making his dialogue looser then it is. If you're going to quote it, you really ought not to add words. "Robb's in the Riverlands." Why would they write that line if it wasn't true.
You aren't responding to my point about "north of Ashemark." The looser dialogue is the one that you are citing. The whole point is that Tywin doesn't know where Robb is. Then there is your part where you're making-up dialogue and then asking me to respond to it. CestWhat (talk) 03:36, March 23, 2013 (UTC)

I'm still waiting on this; check the "Battleground Westeros" feature on the Blu-ray.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 16:40, March 24, 2013 (UTC)

Robb's army has invaded the Westerlands. It is still there, somewhere between Ashemark and the Crag, at the end of the season, based on dialogue. There isn't any debate here.--Werthead (talk) 10:27, March 27, 2013 (UTC)

So why did the screenwriter have Theon say, "Robb's in the Riverlands."?
So why did the screenwriter have Tywin point out the unreliability of scouts who are saying he is north of Ashemark?
So why have the in-episode guide show the Riverlands?
So why make a point establishing that Robb isn't at The Crag and has to ride off to get there while Book Robb marches it on with his army?
If nothing else about "no debate here," and at least DragonDemands appreciated that the points were valid to bring up even he didn't agree with the conclusion. CestWhat (talk) 21:45, March 27, 2013 (UTC)

Songs - "A category for songs that appear within the fictional universe of the Game of Thrones television series. That is, these are songs which the characters themselves know about, and which people might sing on-screen, as opposed to music that plays in the soundtrack (though sometimes, songs characters sing on-screen are subsequently used in the soundtrack)."

"Main Title" is not a song from within the fictional universe, and thus you should not have added the "Songs" category to it.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 02:35, March 25, 2013 (UTC)

Game of Thrones Season 1 Soundtrack is where that should have gone.

Moreover, did you even check the "History" page on that thing? It was made in June 2011, early Season 1. Hasn't been updated since, it's a relic page from the early days before the wiki got organized. We don't have individual pages for specific songs from the soundtrack.

Only in-universe songs. Again, at any point did you notice the paragraph long explanation that the "Songs" category is only for in-universe songs?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 02:41, March 25, 2013 (UTC)

We're running around frantically updating the wiki before the Season 3 you honestly think that this is the appropriate time to make petty niggling points about the soundtrack, of all things?!

Moreover, I told you to check the "Battleground Westeros" featurette on the S2 Blu-ray but you haven't followed up on that.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 02:46, March 25, 2013 (UTC)

I noticed and thought it was a silly idea of just "in-universe" songs since Main title is a song and there should be a category for all
Battleground Westeros doesn't have anything that would tell you that Robb is in the Westerlands (like in the novels) or in the Riverlands (which he is in the TV series). CestWhat (talk) 03:03, March 25, 2013 (UTC)

Youtube clips

Never post links to youtube clips on the wiki (unless they are from the official HBO youtube channel, or publicly released trailers and the like). Posting clips from episodes is a bannable offense.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 16:40, March 24, 2013 (UTC)

I didn't. I linked to an article that itself had links to youtube. There is a difference. CestWhat (talk) 19:21, March 24, 2013 (UTC)

Liar. We have History page records of posts you've made. [2] You added a link to an illegally uploaded youtube clip. No, you did not link to an "article" of any kind, you directly linked to a clip of the show loaded onto youtube. HBO gets mad at us for that kind of thing. You do realize that 1 - adding an illegal link to a youtube clip of a scene from the series, and moreover, 2 - directly lying about it to an Administrator, are bannable offenses?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 02:53, March 25, 2013 (UTC)

That was a TalkPage, I was talking about citation for an article. Two, you're post was about Irri article, which I didn't link to a youtube clip although you claimed I did and then you erased the response of how it didn't matter either way. Now you deleted it to act as if it didn't happen. You watch it at time and never said a word until now. CestWhat (talk) 03:16, March 25, 2013 (UTC)
I didn't watch it at the time, I didn't even notice you added a link; I went back and checked the whole episode. No, you aren't allowed to add links, even to a Talk page.
Moreover, your exact words above are "I linked to an article containing links to a youtube clip"....posting a direct link on a Talk page isn't "linking to an article", like on Vulture on Entertainment Weekly or something. Bluntly, you posted a link to a youtube clip of footage from the TV series. Then you tried to lie about it.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 03:28, March 25, 2013 (UTC)
When I said "no harm done" in that comment I erased, it's because I took you at your word that you only linked to an article or video which in turn linked to actual footage. I took you at your word, but didn't verify if it was a straightforward illegal clip of the series. I erased my comment when I actually clicked on the link an hour ago and realized my error in believing you.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 03:28, March 25, 2013 (UTC)
Because we were discussing the Irri article. We were never discussing if I had ever done at all in any circumstance. You could have just left your original message in and add more. What do you want? Find, I won't post a link to YouTube of clips of the show unless they clips have the permission from HBO. I disagree with you on things, you disagree with me on things. I don't get upset about it. Sometimes I'm won over and sometimes your case is weak to wrong and it's hashed out. You write me REALLY condescending messages all the time and then when I push back, I get "well, other contributors caused trouble months ago so we have to condescending" which really is ruining editing for me personally. I know I don't have to edit and I just find it fun, but it would be nice to treated, not even with respect, but just civility. CestWhat (talk) 03:36, March 25, 2013 (UTC)

When you are criticized for ignoring direct work orders from Administrators, it is not "condescending" and "rudeness". Do you comprehend that we have the power to tell you to do things? That this isn't a happy consensus vote, that if you decide "Robb Stark is in the Riverlands" it doesn't get to "stick" to an article if you try long enough? The Mass Effect Wiki doesn't have to put up with this.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 03:41, March 25, 2013 (UTC)

It was one tiny switch in the most minor of character articles from The Crag to the Riverlands and you switched it. I sited the Blu-ray as my proof. You didn't like it and the article is the way you want it. It still has The Crag on it right now. CestWhat (talk) 03:46, March 25, 2013 (UTC)
That minor character article is irrelevant: the discussion had implications for many other articles.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 03:53, March 25, 2013 (UTC)
I pointed out that Blu-ray in-episode guide always shows Robb Stark scene as being in the Riverlands and that Theon, who would want to know where Robb's army is before laying siege to Winterfell, says "Robb's in the Riverlands." I pointed out that "north of Ashemark" line is actually the scouts say he's north of Ashemark and that Tywin Lannister immediately doubts that the scouts are right. That we never actually see Robb at The Crag or Ashemark, just dialogue and that dialogue is different from the books as are a lot of things. I did this on the TalkPages, not madly editing every article. Even if you still believe it's the Westerlands, I think I've not made an unfair case for why it ought to be at least discussed. CestWhat (talk) 04:06, March 25, 2013 (UTC)
A small distinction. We don't have the power to tell people to 'do things'. Wikis are collaborative efforts. However, admins do have the power to enforce rules and especially ensure that copyright is not being breached and people are not putting up bad information. Although in this particular case it amounts to the same thing.--Werthead (talk) 10:31, March 27, 2013 (UTC)
The Dragron Demands does A LOT for this Wiki, but he does use the terms like "commend," "order," and "demand" a lot which isn't what admins do. He gives me a lot of advice so I'm just returning the favor since he isn't my boss unless he's sending me a paycheck I don't know about. The "bad information" was removing a rumor sourced to anonymous comment on a website and a link to another website that had YouTube clips. Take it up with that website. CestWhat (talk) 21:40, March 27, 2013 (UTC)

Jon Arryn

Your recent edit to "Jon Arryn" was rife with spelling errors. "Natural child" means bastard, not biological child. [3]. You also incorrectly spelled "armor" as "armour". Burden not Columbia with your chaff. Moreover, "Arryn meet with Mhaegen...She show him her infant daughter"?? Arryn "met" with Mhaegen and "showed" him her infant daughter. These are easily avoidable spelling mistakes. In the past you have replied that you "noticed that the Admins take care of such things"...we do, but it takes time away from "actual work". You're wasting our time with such careless errors, and it's rude to assume we're heard to clean up the mess. --The Dragon Demands (talk) 15:23, March 26, 2013 (UTC)


Tempers are running short and frustration high due to the scramble for the Season 3 premiere.

  • Thanks for bringing the S2 Blu-ray in-episode guide stuff to our attention, we've run into problems with extras that don't even match the show before.
  • Normally, we shouldn't condemn changers in a TV adaptation; in the case of Doreah and Irri, something as drastic as one character killing another, in a deleted scene; many viewers might not have concluded that Doreah personally killed Irri unless they saw a deleted scene of it, thus we kind of needed to stress "this was deleted, possibly because they changed their minds against such a drastic change." I reworded that to better fit that idea.
  • Now really isn't the time to poke around a few relic pages like "Main Title" or something; the information is fine, just that it will go onto a Soundtrack page until such time as there's so much it needs to be branched off. This will aid navigation.
  • Your help with the family tree templates has been greatly appreciated.

So I hope that's cool now, and we must focus on getting more work done for Season 3.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 13:37, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

If somebody wants to believe that Doreah strangled Irri to death, they can really. It's open ended. You have to look at the other side that just because it was deleted doesn't mean it didn't happened off-screen in the TV series. I guess I'm just more in the camp of "here is the info on what happened on-screen and there was a deleted scene where blah-blah happened in b-t-s section, you make up your own mind if it happened or not."
I was just taken aback when looking at the title sequence article and noticing that the music isn't mention even just once. That's just wrong to me. The music is really underappreciated and something that really ought to be pumped up rather considered a relic. I know a little about music appreciation, but not really. Like I a lot stuff, I wish I knew more.
I still don't think it can just be said, "The Blu-ray got it wrong" since there is other stuff, the major changes to Robb's campaign in the TV series from the book (i.e. riding off to negotiate The Crag's surrender rather then marching on it) and Theon's quote, pointing to that switch. I'm not even mentioning the interview where they stated it outright since I can't find it.

Those are just thoughts. CestWhat (talk) 19:28, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

No. It's open-ended what happened "off screen" in any given situation, but in the case of Doreah, the fact that we have a screencap image of her strangling Irri on that very page means we have to stress "this was deleted, so it's open ended and may not have "really" happened." "Taken aback"? Yes, music is on the to-do list. We have bigger problems at the moment. If you want to write about the Main Title, do so on the Soundtrack article. If you can't cite an interview it doesn't exist: we put no credibility in your own faulty memory that it even existed. We need citations. Do you...realize how absurd it is to suggest that Robb, in the Riverlands, road to the Crag and then road back to Riverrun? What a war going on? The Westerlands are the size of France, do you honestly think armies move that quickly? Theon was speaking broadly about Robb's departure, and you pleasantly ignore Tywin's statements as misinformation.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 19:34, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

I have deleted the "Main Title" page. This is not up for discussion. If you want to discuss the soundtracks, do so on the soundrack page. Let me take you by the hand, and make a link: Game of Thrones Season 1 Soundtrack.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 19:36, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

They weren't kidding about you being "overzealous." CestWhat (talk) 19:52, March 26, 2013 (UTC)
No, they really weren't kidding. They might even be understating. DRAEVAN13House-Targaryen-heraldry 20:40, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

Going through this again, I'm putting Kevan's remark (not Tywin's remark) in the context the show gives. It's said that the scouts are saying it and Tywin points the unreliability of the scouts. That isn't me ignoring it, but you. You are adding context not given to Theon's line yet ignoring any context that doesn't prove your point i.e. that Theon would know Robb's plans before he left for Pyke; that he would have known Robb's location before marching on Winterfell. There is nothing broad in the delivery of the line or vague. That the time it takes to travel to and from the Crag is never made clear and how the show isn't that consistent of travel times. It's getting into the weeds to start citing "realistically" in a fictional TV show. You and I are not mind readers of fictional characters either way. You don't know "what Theon is thinking" when he says that line anymore then I do. Irri's death is never shown on-screen. Even without the deleted scene, if a person wanted to think to themselves that Doreah did it, go nuts. You or I can disagree, but that's what open ended is all about. I have a hunch that you are stressing this not because you want to inform, but you want others to agree with you about why that scene was delete when there plenty of valid reasons (episode running long, wanting to keep the reveal of Doreah's betrayal until the season finale, etc...) that have nothing to do with "going too far" from the source material (something the production team has said doesn't bother them). CestWhat (talk) 20:56, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

Please stop making spelling errors, I've already warned you about this: [4] --The Dragon Demands (talk) 23:20, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

Regarding your sarcastic comment in an Edit summary for "Kerry Ingram": "(oh yeah, it was full of mistake. Complain on everybody TalkPage about it who did it besides just me." [5] ...we have History pages with timestamps to keep a record of edits. You made the following edit at 16:39 on March 26: "She has minor part in the film Les Misérables."[6] As seen on that History page, it wasn't until a full two and a half hours later that I corrected your basic mistake, to add in an "a" so it is "she has A minor part". Two and a half hours. You cannot possibly claim that I could you in the middle of editing before you were finished. Again, we have an edit summary: that wasn't "mistakes by other people": you yourself added the line "She has minor part in the film". Is this a minor point? Normally no...but I have been giving you multiple warnings in the past few days and last few hours to be more careful about spelling mistakes, instead of rudely expecting the admins to clean up your mess. You ignored this warning, when what I would have expected is that at least for a few days you'd try to be more careful. What's really insulting is that rather than saying it was an honest mistake, or that I'm being too strict, you're flatly denying that you even made the mistake. "everyone who made mistakes besides you"? --The Dragon Demands (talk) 23:51, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

"Natural" means "Bastard"

This isn't the first time you've made this mistake, but you either ignored or forget earlier warnings: as the article on Bastards explains, the polite term for bastard children is "natural children", as opposed to "trueborn" children. You've been mixing this up. [7].--The Dragon Demands (talk) 20:45, March 27, 2013 (UTC)


Over the Roslin Frey family template, and that one you wrote a while back at the "update family tree" forum you could very well be temporarily blocked for inserting spoilers, the very spoilers of season 3 we're trying to avoid and we're working 24/7 to remove if they pop up. Consider this strike two.Gonzalo84 (talk) 20:45, March 27, 2013 (UTC)

What strike? Where is the spoiler?
What are you assuming I'm doing?
Why "protect" House Tully since I wasn't adding anything to it nor planning to? 
It's been made for a week. I wrote on the forum that I just wanted to have this stuff set up that was coming up in the season, so I made the templates for family members, I made one for Roslin Frey as well so it just easier for me to do all in one go.
I agree on the spoiler if I wrote the name of the person she ends up in the books, but I didn't. I had was her name as "Roslin Frey" which is no more a spoiler then her own article. I'm not adding the template to anything article and maybe TV Roslin won't marry the person she does in the books or marry at all. It was just to have ready if and when Roslin Frey does become involve.  CestWhat (talk) 21:18, March 27, 2013 (UTC)
In the Family tree forum you did mention that until I removed it. That's one. And now in the Roslin Frey family tree template you wrote "Roslin Frey nee Frey" and again I undid it. That's two.
I thought, like other Wikis, that TalkPages were spoiler-friendly zones. It's actually weird that it isn't, but fine, your move. How could a person be spoiled by "nee Frey"? That makes no sense. You're wrong. CestWhat (talk) 23:01, March 27, 2013 (UTC)
"nee" implies marriage.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 23:03, March 27, 2013 (UTC)

And protecting House Tully has nothing to do with you. Its part of the the antivandalism effort which led us to protect several House Stark articles.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 22:56, March 27, 2013 (UTC)

C'mon, this whole thing is a stretch. One, IT'S ON A TEMPLATE THAT ISN'T EVEN USED ON A SINGLE ARTICLE. Two, FREY NEE FREY doesn't make any sense and you'd have to already know what happens in the books to think it was a spoiler. If you didn't know, you'd just as likely think it was a mistake (if you ever even saw it). Three, I haven't changed it back. Change it all you like, but notice the work that I'm doing. I'm new and what-is-a-spoiler is a hot topic and the idea that FREY NEE FREY is obviously trying to spoil somebody is unfair. If anything, writing FREY NEE FREY shows that I was trying to avoid a spoiler. That you disagree shouldn't be my fault.
Why are you so keen on banning me without any benefit of the doubt? I keep hearing about how my edits are just distracting from all the work you have to do (which isn't that nice since I think I've done a lot of good work on top of any complaints you've had). The way you act, you'd think nothing but racist slurs or constantly challenging your advice at every turn. I haven't been mean or rude, but I get so much of it from you guys here. CestWhat (talk) 23:18, March 27, 2013 (UTC)

Main Page

Look at the main page. It says no spoilers from the books. Who marries who, even saying one character gets married is a potential spoiler.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 23:06, March 27, 2013 (UTC)

I didn't write that she got married. FREY NEE FREY doesn't imply that. "Imply" is just that, an implication rather then a direct statement. If anything, reading would mean she marries a Frey (is that a spoiler). It implies that it makes no sense without the context of the books and you can't say that's a spoiler because YOU ARE ALREADY SPOILED. It was on a template that wasn't used on any article. If I was madly keen on spoiling, you really think that was how I was going to do it. If think that it's a spoiler, fine. I was trying to avoid a spoiler, but you're acting that it's my fault for not understanding your personal nuance on spoilers. CestWhat (talk) 23:21, March 27, 2013 (UTC)

1 - Quite simply...why did you even bother writing "nee Frey" all? Why didn't you leave that line blank? Is this something to do with setting up the template? You see, imagine that back in Season 1, someone said "we should add "nee" to Margaery Tyrell, because it will save work having to add that template later"....or even, "hey, why don't we add "deceased" to "Ned Stark"? We'll be saving work we'll only have to do later"......adding any information to a family tree template is a spoiler if it hasn't happened yet. What the hell was your rationale for adding that now? Even if it is less work now, you're doing all of the family trees now....this hasn't occurred yet. Yes, you are supposed to wait until it actually reflects the TV show. YES, "FREY NEE FREY" implies she'll marry someone...yet you openly wave off this problem with "readers will just think it's a typo"?

2 - "That you disagree shouldn't be my fault." ....that an Administrator does not simply "disagree" with you, but points out that you are violating spoilers policy, is SPECIFICALLY your fault.

3 - "and you can't say that's a spoiler because YOU ARE ALREADY SPOILED."....that is absurd. You are absurd. Of course "we" are spoiled, *the Administrators have all reader the books through the current and fifth novel, corresponding to seasons 5-6 of the TV show*. Just because I knew Renly would die when I was watching Season 1...didn't make it any less wrong when someone else posted that information on the wiki then. We're not worried about "us"....we're policing the spoilers policy for TV-first fans.

4 - It isn't so much what you're doing as the manner in which you're doing it. Yelling at the Administrators and questioning decisions they make, even on basic matters of policy. In short, sit down, shut up, work diligently, respond politely, and things will go much more easily. Instead, you're arguing with everyone.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 00:23, March 28, 2013 (UTC)

Don't tell me to shut up. Whatever else, NOBODY deserves that kind of bullying. CestWhat (talk) 00:32, March 28, 2013 (UTC)
Answer the question. Why did you even bother including "nee Frey"? Why not just leave it blank until it needs to be changed?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 00:36, March 28, 2013 (UTC)
You cite the manner rather then the action. I don't mind active admins and being noted on mistakes, but the manner you did is just so, so terrible and mean. Like I'm going out of my way to ruin this wiki one edit at time rather just a new contributor who means well.
I included "née" because I was just copy and pasting another template and left it in since nobody would see it anyhow since it's only a template not included on any actual article. Do you really think this was a sneaky attempt to spoil. I didn't think that A) anybody would care since nobody would see it and B) you would think it was either meant to spoil or even that it would spoil since unless you knew what already happened in the novels, you wouldn't know what it meant.
Admins are not ineffable and I just write polite and on-point responses because that is what Wikis are about. I don't ask questions based on exaggerations and hypotheticals that don't exist.
Editing is just a voluntary hobby so I don't feel I should have to put up with mean language like "sit down, shut up, work" which is just counterproductive since it would turn off any person. CestWhat (talk) 00:49, March 28, 2013 (UTC)
...Well, what we've got here, is failure to communicate.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 01:11, March 28, 2013 (UTC)

Over again. I don't think it's fair to call it "Strike Two." All I did was just copy and paste a template and didn't delete the née part for one, I didn't think anybody who wasn't an admin would see it since it wasn't being posted to an article and two, it wouldn't make such sense without the context of already knowing what happened. While User:G disagrees and that's fine, I think it's unfair to act like it was this malicious or stupid attempt to spoiler. CestWhat (talk) 04:12, March 28, 2013 (UTC)

We never said it was "malicious", but it was a mistake nevertheless. "Just copy+paste"... from where? And why don't you say that from the start... like "oh man, it was a copy+paste, I didn't mean to", "copy+pasting kind of fast and didn't see it", or whatever. But noooooo... first you go all defiant and then you bring up the copy+paste thing. Truth be told your attempts to deny any mistake on your behalf is getting tiresome.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 09:56, March 28, 2013 (UTC)
If we are talking tiresome, let's factor in the mistakes you write to me about that I deny that you wrote I was write and you apologized to me for.
You don't say it was "malicious," but you sure act it in your responses. If you think I was being defiant, I'm allowed to think you were condemning me rather then trying to be helpful and encouraging admins. In both cases, we are trying to tone into text which may or may not be there.
I brought up "copy and pasted" (from Template for Cersei Lannsiter on House Baratheon) because I was asked why I had ""née" which wasn't something you asked.
I didn't that deny you thought it was a spoiler, but I don't think it's a mistake that to not be able to read your mind. We can hash out this out again and again about how any person would be spoiled in any real sense, but I really don't want. CestWhat (talk) 16:03, March 28, 2013 (UTC)
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