Hi, welcome to Game of Thrones Wiki! Thanks for your edit to the File:Small royce.jpg page.

We welcome all contributions to the Wiki but please be aware of the following simple rules:

1) This wiki is meant for the Game of Thrones TV series and the TV alone. Spoilers from the novels are not permitted at all. Discussion of earlier events in the novels and the use of non-spoiler background material from the novel as regards specific events, characters and places in the TV series are allowed (in the 'In the books' section of an article) but future events cannot be discussed.

2) This wiki has specific permission from HBO's marketing department to use a reasonable number of promotional images and screencaps from the series to illustrate articles. The use of other copyrighted images is not permitted without either specific permission or fair use attributions. For example, this Wiki cannot use Amoka's portrait images or Ted Nasmith's castle pictures as these are copyrighted. In addition, the Wiki is focused on the TV series and TV series alone. Images from other media should be avoided without a very good cause.

Enjoy your editing and please leave a message on my talk page if I can help with anything! The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:51, February 2, 2014 (UTC)

New images MUST be categorized

The images you've uploaded must be categorized and tagged.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 04:02, March 18, 2014 (UTC)

Family trees

Due to a string of rampant and difficult to detect vandalism during Season 3, only Administrators may now create or edit family tree diagrams and templates. The pages have been locked to Admin-only, and new template pages will be locked as soon as they are created. Please do not attempt any work on family tree diagrams in the future, of any kind whatsoever, including changing the images. No exceptions.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 19:45, March 18, 2014 (UTC)

This is confusing. Ardilaun (talk) 18:58, March 20, 2014 (UTC)
What are you confused about?--The-Boy 19:03, March 20, 2014 (UTC)
Several wikis restrict templates to admins.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 19:39, March 20, 2014 (UTC)
I was confused about being told not to edit a page that I can’t edit. I noticed that editing the family tree templates are restricted. I understand about wanting to prevent vandalism and that the family tree are mostly static and don’t really need must updating throughout the year, but it seems the implication is that nobody else including me is allowed to make suggestions or have a discussion about what is or isn’t in them if and when if they could use a bit of updating and if I do, it will be ignored. Hopefully I’m wrong about that. Ardilaun (talk) 16:19, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

Temp Ban

I gave the above warning at 19:45 March 18, clearly saying that it is forbidden for anyone except Administrators to work on Family Tree templates, "No exceptions"....which meant no exceptions.

I stated, word for word, "Please do not attempt any work on family tree diagrams in the future, of any kind whatsoever, INCLUDING changing the images. No exceptions."

You then said that you were confused that you were being told you couldn't edit the locked Bolton family tree.

Okay, for those who don't work on these, the individual family member boxes of a family tree are actually separate boxes from the finished, full family tree.

This is Ardilaun's contributions list, with timestamps:

Within 15-16 hours, March 18, Ardilaun put in a new photo for Fat Walda (which isn't necessarily a problem because it's a character we've never had a picture of in costume before, though frowned upon a little) - but more importantly, Ardilaun created entirely new infobox templates for "Domeric Bolton" and "Lady Bolton":

Now I actually locked those three pages from any further editing about 20-30 minutes after he made them - then got called away from the computer - and about four hours later wrote the above warning/explanation on his Talk page here.

At 14:59 March 20 (two days later) you acknowledged that you had read this warning, above, though your response was "this is confusing". Within an hour, first Admin The Boy Who Cried Direwolf, and then Admin Gonzalo84 (at 19:39) explained to you that only Admins can edit family tree templates (again, we've had strings of rampant vandalism about this before, which was hard to detect and disproportionately did very visible damage to the wiki).

Now, at 15:26 March 18 - before I made my warning - you went so far as to put together a mockup of a revised House Bolton family tee in a sandbox page branching from your userpage:

You wouldn't have made this as a sandbox page unless you tried to edit the family tree, discovered you couldn't actually edit it because we've locked it...and then put together a revised mockup, in the hope that you could...persuade us into using it? Okay, outside chance you experimented in a sanbox first just to get it right, let's preserve benefit of the doubt.

NONETHELESS, through March 22 - FOUR DAYS after I gave this strict but explicit warning not do edit anything even remotely related to family trees, and TWO DAYS after two other Administrators repeated this warning to clarify it to you.... proceeded to continue to work on the House Bolton family tree mockup on your sandbox page:

A few minor fixes and tweaks, refinements, would still have been forbidden - but you went so far as to develop a second, alternate mockup of the family tree.

Look, maybe you legitimately wanted to help on the family trees, and your line of reasoning is that you could make a mockup of a proper template then have an Administrator copy it into a protected page.

In and of itself that isn't offensive, but we told you not to work on family trees. You didn't come to us FIRST, you see, and ask "well can I at least make a mockup and see if you like it?"

But the Sandbox was one thing. Swapping out the Walda Bolton image was also very annoying, even if it was done in haste for a character we never had a picture of.

You then, within 12-13 hours March 22, loaded up a picture of "Mace Tyrell" which you put into the infobox on the "Mace Tyrell" page and added to the House Tyrell family tree. Again, like Walda Bolton, you weren't really supposed to load up new family tree images...the difference now being that I had ALREADY warned you when you did this on Walda Bolton, yet you did the exact same thing four days later, ignoring my warning - in which case it was no longer "frowned upon" but "ignoring an explicit Administrator warning" (which was reinforced by two other Administrators).

This is not the worst part: Ardilaun, this is not a picture of "Mace Tyrell".

This is a screencap of the behind-the-scenes Season 4 costuming featurette. But this is not a screencap of "Mace Tyrell" the character. This is a screencap of "Roger Ashton-Griffiths", the actor, who happens to be in full costume at the time, talking straight into the camera as he discusses working on the TV series.

The lighting and cinematography are not within the world of "the TV continuity" - it's the actor when he happens to be in full costume, talking to an interviewer.

This is a basic mistake and you should have known it. Yet you went so far as to load it into the character's infobox page.

Ultimately Ardilaun you have made numerous mistakes when loading images to this wiki before, which made more work for the rest of us.

Many of these were careless errors: a while ago when you loaded a cropped House Royce sigil image from a behind the scenes featurette -- which I had already loaded as a full image to the wiki's heraldry page, pointing out that it DOES NOT match the on-screen version. You were openly surprised because you hadn't fact-checked it.

Let me repeat this: Things which appear in behind-the-scenes HBO featurettes are "behind the scenes": they are not in-universe material.

Yet you presented the House Royce sigil as such, and later, a behind the scenes image of the actor who plays Mace Tyrell, as "Mace Tyrell".

You loaded a fuzzy image of Joss Stilwell to that character's page which had to be removed. You also loaded an image of the "House Payne" sigil just now, but you didn't even crop it well - it wasn't just the sigil (which is admittedly so blurry I didn't think it could be easily used) but large portions of the map which their flag appears on in an animated featurette.

All of these had to be reverted.

Your basic defense when questioned on this is "wow, you guys are megafans".

"With whether or not to include Miller's Wife, there are a lot of GoT and ASOIAF megafans who know everything about this stuff already, but I think it helps point out right away to the new fan right way that Ramsay is both a bastard and lowborn as well as easily establishing that he and Domeric Bolton are half brothers by showing two differing mothers so those are reasons to include it."

I had already discussed with the other Admins that, due to the difficulty of showing three wives in such a template (as we've seen with Walder Frey), we were going to copy what AWOIAF did and leave out the Miller's wife. It's simply a limitation of fitting too many wives in. Or maybe we'll change it - but this is an Administrators decision.

No, we are not hardcore megafans: you made a basic mistake and confused behind-the-scenes footage with in-universe footage (even acknowledging that you understand the difference when this was pointed out). No, this is not because we are book readers and you haven't read them: TV-only fans would have noticed such a distinction.

Similarly, regardless of ability level, when any editor is told "drop what you're doing and don't work on family tree templates"...they should stop working on family tree templates.

Maybe you wanted to present a Bolton family tree to an Admin to add into a page, but you should have asked before even working on it. But worse than that, you added a new image to the Mace Tyrell entry on the Tyrell family tree - after I'd warned you that you were mistaken to do the exact same thing four days before for Walda Bolton - and, as it turns out, it was an unusable image because it was from a behind the scenes interview.

"but it seems the implication is that nobody else including me is allowed to make suggestions or have a discussion about what is or isn’t in them if and when if they could use a bit of updating and if I do, it will be ignored."


I'm sorry but due to these mistakes I'm banning you for one week so that the message sinks in: we gave you a warning days ago, you acknowledged it, but ignored it.

You've also lost your sandbox privileges. I'm deleting the Bolton templates you made there and locking the page. Do not make another sandbox. --The Dragon Demands (talk) 02:04, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

Okay I discussed this with the other admins and Gonzalo84 said you were acting in good faith, just overzealous. I agree, so I'm ending this temp ban right now, after only one day. You're not in long-term trouble or anything. But please, I temp banned you because you sort of ignored the warning we gave a few days before. The family tree templates are used so rarely that the Admins can handle them, because it's too risky to leave them unlocked (they're a magnet for vandals). Actually, yes you could join in a discussion over what form they take - but only generalized suggestions, you must understand that Admins have final say on that (i.e. if we choose whether or not to include Ramsay's mother in a Bolton template, after the final decision is made please don't loudly complain about it for weeks and months afterwards).
Separately, the Mace Tyrell image was a big mistake (though you meant it well) and you should really ask for confirmation about such stuff (that is, after you loaded it up you should have asked an Admin, "hey, is this a suitable image?".
Also I've unlocked your sandbox, you're free to use it for anything - except please don't make practice family trees on it again, unless directly asked to come up with an example of something.
Good luck editing.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 19:59, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

Family Trees - official warning

I have been busy graduating from university since April 16th and haven't been able to devote my full attention to the wiki, though I have tried.

As you can see in the Talk posts above, I've been warning you for over two months, plainly and simply: only Administrators are allowed to make family tree templates.

The fact that you are not vandalizing them, or that you are making new ones entirely in good faith, and even making productive edits, is irrelevant.

You are allowed to discuss family tree designs on talk pages. But you can only type out in text "Hey, I think we should list individual Sand Snakes instead of having one box for all of them" do not make a mock-up practice template to demonstrate this, even on a Talk page.

Particularly, you shouldn't be making practice templates on talk pages (as you did on Talk:House Martell) because for months now, I SPECIFICALLY ordered you never to do that, even on a talk page. You ignored my past warnings.

You've made these family tree templates since April 16th and I missed that you had created them. All were made after the past warnings I gave you in late April:

What you were doing on the "Talk:House Florent" page (before you made a family tree) is what you're supposed to be doing: debating how the family tree may have been altered in the TV show, by just discussing it in text messages.

I am not angry nor am I punishing you.

The fault is in-part mine because I was only half on the wiki due to finishing my thesis, language placement tests, and graduating (what time I had was mostly focused on redesigning the front page, and the Season 4 episode guide).

And indeed, you actually politely asked about a week ago, trying to flag down an Administrator to update the Lysa Arryn family tree to indicate that she is deceased:

So you actually did ask, but we are facing a massive workload.

What I do want to say is that I have repeatedly warned you about this for weeks, stretching into months.

This is now, officially, your final warning: never edit family tree templates in any capacity whatsoever, even to indicate that a character is deceased (we should lock all such templates but there are dozens of them).

Technically you really shouldn't be updating the images either, but a blind eye can be turned to that because it doesn't involve the family tree template itself...though even this is a stretch and you should be at most focusing on better cropped versions of the current image, not picking new ones. Of course if an Admin asks, "hey does anyone have a better, cropped version of a Bronn image on hand?" and you offer it, that's acceptable. I'm going to be easy on you about the image part of things.

The problem is that this is what you focus on editing, even when we tell you to stop. Directly tell you to stop. Your response has often been to plead to do it anyway; on Talk:Petyr Baelish you prefaced a template you made by insisting that it was a good faith edit. No, it is officially not a good faith edit, because I ordered you, word-for-word, never to make a family tree template, even for demonstration purposes on a Talk page. The fact that you preface it with "This is just a test" or "this is in good faith", or "wait, but..." doesn't matter. No means no. This is a direct order.

...the only compromise I can think of is that if you really want to discuss a conjectural design for a family tree (i.e. figuring out the TV-Florent family tree)....draw it in a Paint image file. As a drawing. Then load the image onto the wiki purely for discussion purposes on a Talk page, as a diagram.

So I'm not giving you a warning temp ban or anything, and you have tried to flag down Admins for help, and there's been more work than Admins, but it was wrong to do it on your own, even after a week -- if no Admins noticed your message asking for help on the Talk:Lysa Arryn page, you should have posted messages on our Talk pages so it would come up as a popup the next time we logged in (I would have responded if it was a Talk message, but due to the heavy daily editing in the active season I couldn't see your message on the Lysa talk page).

I really, really am trying to avoid disciplinary action. I've given you multiple warnings but time and again, after each warning, if I say "never make a family tree template for any reason whatsoever" your response has persistently been "but wait, I'm exceptional".

This is a direct warning. As official, and with as much advanced notice as it is possible to give: if you make any family tree template ever again...or if you post code for a family tree template ever again...even on a talk page...or if you modify family tree templates in any capacity (such as to update a deceased character)....I will permanently ban you.

I do not want to do this at all and I've been giving you warnings for weeks that this is a serious problem.

I'm going to ignore edits you make to images used in family tree templates, so long as you don't abuse the privilege and completely redesign them. It would be polite if you asked first, by posting a link to the new image you want on the talk page for the house/family tree.

But I don't want to upset you with this and I am not trying to "scold" you. I am imploring you to not break this rule again.

Otherwise, if you feel strongly about other family tree issues (the Florents, the Sand Snakes) please compile a succinct link of things you feel need revision and post it on my talk page, and I will devote my attention to it.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 01:53, June 3, 2014 (UTC)

You can see how this is confusing, right?

Before anything, I’d like to cite this since it seems to fit as I’d like to question this policy. I apologize. The admin, even if didn’t agree, told me not to edit this and I did. But I asked over two weeks ago and no response and I just didn’t feel like asking again. It’s silly and I should have gone straight to questioning the policy with User: Werthead, but quoting: “The fact that you are not vandalizing them, or that you are making new ones entirely in good faith, and even making productive edits, is irrelevant.” How is that irrelevant? A policy that bans me for what you even describe as “not vandalizing,” “good faith,” and “productive” seems like it ought have another look at and I’d note that there is nowhere on here the Family Tree discussion policy except my Talk Page.

These are all the times you’ve communicated to me since that banning me and there were no warnings or reprimands. [1] [2] [3] [4] [5]

You mentioned that you didn’t read the post on the various Talk Pages until the other day, but another administrator did and responded to it on Talk:House Martell[6] so he clearly read it and he didn’t issue any reprimands or warning. You also cited this as an offense[7], but you responded to same Talk Page after that was posted without any issue[8] so it isn’t like I didn’t have cause to think making a simple family tree chart to explain myself or writing out the code so that the as going to cause any trouble with anybody

This policy on how to discuss updating the various Family Trees is all over the place. You aren’t the sole administrator who updates the family tree templates[9] [10] [11] so why is do I have to only post only on your Talk Page. How short is short enough or why is it solely to take place and you complimented me on having a long and thought-out post about House Florent (thank you BTW). I am questioning this policy since the rational for this kind of policies (prevent book spoilers, spam, opinions as fact, etc…) isn’t really being applied. I get administrators have total authority on this kind of issue, but I do think there such more

Quoting “The family tree templates are used so rarely that the Admins can handle them, because it's too risky to leave them unlocked (they're a magnet for vandals).” The family tree templates aren’t the same as discussing them. I do think that the policy on how to discuss them ought to be more open and free since I’m been discussing them since April without any incident of vandalism and I did the discussion without being uncivil or harping for weeks and months when the final decision didn’t go the way I would have preferred.

I do what to appreciate the civil tone and this could all end up being for nothing, but I didn’t contribute at the time, but there seems to be a bit of PTSD about the Family Tree Templates during the third season which sucks since it might be informing a policy that is a bit weird to me since again, the discussion is meant in good faith and the rules seems to just keep changing and don’t have a rational beyond “because I said so” although I will try to follow although I think it should be changed and I’m allowed to lament it. Ardilaun (talk) 11:10, June 3, 2014 (UTC)

I never intended to convey to you the message that "you should only respond on my talk page". In context, I meant "ask on my talk page, or any other admin's talk page".
No means no. Working on family tree templates is an admin-only privilege, that's why we locked them. Yet you're so driven to work on them that they're even posting code for templates onto talk pages; no, this isn't a work-saving step, it doesn't take that long to physically create new family trees. You could just as easily do this without making template code, as you did on the Florent talk page, by just making text-based suggestions about connections.
I am still confused: why are you so desperate, compelled, that you're even posting the code? I've explained to you directly and repeatedly that this is trying to work around the protections on it, and that you could just as easily work on it with text...OR with an image drawn in a paint file.
As you mention in your first paragraph: yes, even if you think you're making "good faith" edits, the family tree templates are locked and will remain locked to Admins-only. By the same logic, we "Protect" to Admins-only, certain very important pages, i.e. "Tyrion Lannister" ...meaning we're not even allowing good-faith edits on them for the time being. Similarly, we protected ALL of the family tree templates. Making new, mock templates is....imagine if someone, in their sandbox page, wrote up an entire separate, alternate "Tyrion Lannister" sub-page, out of annoyance that the actual page is protected to Admins-only. Don't you see how that's challenging the Admins and disruptive?
I am not scolding you. This was a friendly warning. It's just that instead of three strikes I believe in one warning (and I've already discussed the issue before). Please: stop making family tree templates even in a sandbox.
No means no and you cannot challenge this policy.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 16:47, June 4, 2014 (UTC)
Please Ardilaum, respect the admins' choice to keep family tree templates a "just-admin" territory. This is not about our egos, but to keep this place manageable. We must deal with vandals and spammers on a daily basis and even family tree templates can be targeted by spoiler-vandals.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 04:21, June 5, 2014 (UTC)
So it's fine to discuss editing on other administrator. Ardilaun (talk) 16:51, June 9, 2014 (UTC)
What?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 23:47, June 10, 2014 (UTC)
Meant other administrators' walls. My mistake. You've read the one I was suggesting summed up as Littlefinger into House Tully & House Arryn (he isn't really in House Arryn by birth or by marriage, but him being Robin's stepfather is pretty important to House Arryn and the Vale), Joffrey Baratheon into House Tyrell, House Florent & House Martell additions and/or subtractions stuff (which is more debatable I suppose) as well the categories showing a different house, but the family tree template aren't a big rush. No bother putting a pin on it until later on over the summer. Enjoying code writing, I think of doing something similar to this chart:Wikipedia:Quentin Tarantino#Frequent collaborators for the opening credits so it's sortable by episode or by location, but it was just a thought. Ardilaun (talk) 16:53, June 20, 2014 (UTC)

Family tree template changes

Did you ask for permission to change Tommen's family tree icon?--The-Boy 11:35, July 2, 2014 (UTC)

No, but I'd previously told him I'd turn the blind eye to updating images; his specific recent edits were actually just better quality versions of the same shots.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 19:36, July 2, 2014 (UTC)

Family trees at the end of Season 4

I've been updating the family trees the last few days. Is there anything you would like me to change?

I've decided to keep the Martell tree as it is for now...because we're not sure if they're condensing some of them together and things are very much in flux as the moment.

Meanwhile the problems with the Florent tree are very annoying...I can see no easy answer. They swapped Axell for Alester, then made him Selyse's younger brother, plus the Rylene problems. The most I did was try to send in the question to official sources but I doubt they will respond (also I've added it to "the Cargo Cult" of questions we'd ask if we ever contact the writers). I vaguely hope that if we get a Shireen and Samwell scene at Castle Black in Season 5, they'll take a moment to actually explain "this is how the TV version of House Florent is set up".

Adding three husbands to Margaery Tyrell was a little difficult due to physical limits of family tree code, but I did the best I could.

Is there anything that needs improving (besides House Frey, which I'm working on right at this moment)?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 00:46, July 10, 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for thinking of me and asking. That was nice and I do appreciate it. I guess one quick one would be for Tytos Lannister's wife. To fit the format of the other ones, should it be Jeyne Lannister
née Marbrand
on her?
Saw you're thing about House Frey which is pretty hard. You wrote you weren't sure if it was established how many wives Lord Walder has had. If makes a difference, the older version of the HBO Viewer's Guide for Season Two mentions that Joyeuse Frey is his eighth wife [12] Ardilaun (talk) 15:58, July 11, 2014 (UTC)

It did mention her as the eight wife, and we do state in the family tree that he has 7 wives before that...but we're not sure if they moved around what their internal relationships are. On the "to do" list to ask about.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 16:18, July 11, 2014 (UTC)

Title Sequence

Love the charts you added to the Title Sequence page. Very smart idea and great editing!! I enjoyed looking over them. Kudos! QueenBuffy35px-Pink crown 20:44, August 29, 2014 (UTC)

That was nice to read. Glad you like it. Ardilaun (talk) 14:31, September 2, 2014 (UTC)

"Mormont in family tree categories"

Mormont in is in the category section. Templates for Houses Arryn, Blackfyre, Durrandon, Martell, Stokeworth, Tarth, Tarly, Targaryen (Dance of Dragon Era) and the Direwolves have the incorrect name in the category at the bottom. Ardilaun (talk) 23:13, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

...I don't see what you're talking about. The family tree templates you link here do not say "Mormont" in them, nor do the history tabs say that they used to at any point. Are you sure of this?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 01:31, September 15, 2014 (UTC)
It's circled in red. Some of the others don't have Mormont, but have the incorrect name in the category part.Ardilaun (talk) 20:18, September 16, 2014 (UTC)

Ah. I made them by copying other templates. I didn't notice this because it doesn't display unless you're editing the actual template, or something. I've taken care of it (unless there were any others).--The Dragon Demands (talk) 20:45, September 16, 2014 (UTC)


Tired writing up a bit of code for a family tree and done, but won't post it unless asked first. So I looked at all the articles under Category:House Targaryen tried to fit them onto a family tree. I mainly looked at the ones already made on the wiki as well as this one I tend to avoid the ASOIAF wiki website because of book spoilers, but looked to see how they did it too. Get that the ASOIAF wiki uses separate family tree for different eras and there is for sure a case to repeat that on this wiki, but that makes more sense for them because there are whole stories devoted to specific Targaryen monarchs (The Princess & The Queen about Rhaenyra and Aegon II and Tales of Dunk & Egg about Aegon V with his uncles and brothers) while on this wiki if it's just about the television show, besides the actors playing Targaryens and maybe the Mad King, Crown Prince Rhaegar and Aegon the Conqueror, most individual Targaryens never get mentioned that much except a line or two in a Histories & Lore video.

Also figured that the more Targaryens on a single tree, the more likely folks would see them (figure Maester Aemon's article or Aegon the Conqueror's article is more popular than Aemond Targaryen, but if they see his name on the family tree they might click so that drives up the view numbers). Ardilaun (talk) 15:26, May 13, 2015 (UTC)


Given that the writers never confirmed how the Aerys II generation combines with the Aegon V generation if Jaehaerys II is cut, we cannot post a full family tree of the Targaryens.

...I will work on this myself. Please, I've already told you not to work on the family trees.

...We'll either do this as a separate page or a composite image...I'll deal with this...--The Dragon Demands (talk) 20:48, May 13, 2015 (UTC)

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