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...I wasn't here in Season 1. Why is this character assumed to be Walder Rivers...and not Ryger Rivers, who actually had the dialogue this character uses in Season 1's "Baelor"?

It has a conjecture tag.

I am starting to suspect that the TV continuity condensed Walder's grandson Black Walder Frey and his bastard son Walder Rivers into one composite character, "Black Walder Rivers", a bastard son of Lord Walder.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 02:28, July 9, 2014 (UTC)

Presumably because Ryger Rivers is a teenager in the books. It's Ryger, not Walder who reminds his father of his courtesies (or tries to). It's pure speculation to say that this Frey bastard is Walder Rivers based on his age. The page should be moved to Ryger Rivers to allow the Black Walder page to be moved to Walder Rivers.--The-Boy 06:25, July 9, 2014 (UTC)
Anyone else agree/disagree?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 14:02, July 9, 2014 (UTC)
Probably futile on my part, but if you want to simplify it, why not just do what for Tim Plester and Bryan McCaugherty what this wiki did for John Stahl and Steven Blount (it isn't 100% the same situation, but it's pretty similar)? Treat it like one character (in terms of just one article) and just use the same language that's on Steven Blount's article mentioning that his role may have been recast or he may be playing since a separate Northern lord since he was never named on on-screen.
No need to be more definite. No matter what, it's speculation and different from the books, but just putting into one article is the simplest and also how more people will read it under Walder Rivers (Black Walder) and less repetitive with the information on Ryger Rivers, Walder Rivers and Black Walder Frey. "You must think what I think" isn't really need here. If one person want to think McCaugherty and Plester were suppose to be the same character, that's fine, (it's a nice pay off to that look McCaugherty gives Michelle Fairley) and if another person thinks they're separate characters, that's fine too. That's how it now for Rickard Karstark and Steven Blount and seems like it would the simplest for Walder Rivers and Bryan McCaugherty. Ardilaun (talk) 17:15, July 9, 2014 (UTC)

1 - We're arguing that in the TV continuity, "Black Walder" is "Black Walder Rivers", a composite of book-Black Walder Frey and book-Walder Rivers.

2 - We did want to know if anyone thought it was the same character, just recast, but Walder Frey has more than enough bastards to go around.

3 - It was needlessly confusing to list them by actor instead of by character.

4 -...yes, yes we need to "be more definite". How is Rickard Karstark being recast between Season 1 and Season 2 remotely comparable, to the point that you would say "we will never know if that guy in Season 1 was Rickard Karstark"...he was identified as Karstark in casting materials and has Karstark's lines from the book.

5 - ...yes, yes, you must "think what I think and acknowledge it as fact"...that's the very concept behind an online encyclopedia! Separating out the facts. "If another person thinks they're separate characters, that's fine too"...this entire conversation has been about picking one or the other so they don't remain in a state of flux!

Well let me clarify: I myself might be outvoted on a decision, after which I have to accept that decision. You're just being petulant by overtly stating, "well whatever consensus decides as policy, I'm still going to defiantly think the other thing is true!"....yes, tacitly, when people get outvoted they think their view was correct...but they are still expected to quietly accept the decision and acknowledge it as wiki policy until such time as it is changed based on new information. Do you seriously think it isn't rude to post "well I'm just going to keep thinking what I think regardless of the consensus vote you achieve here"?

6 - NO, THAT is not what we currently have for Karstark! Karstark was recast, plain and simple.

That isn't how wikis...work.

I want you to acknowledge that this is how wikis work, instead of pouting about it.

What...what was behind all of your pervasive demands to be allowed to work on family trees...if the underlying facts behind them are "open to interpretation"? Why bother making a family tree in which TV-Margaery is older than TV-Loras, the reverse of the books....if you also feel that "if another person wants to think differently, that's fine too"?

--The Dragon Demands (talk) 17:42, July 10, 2014 (UTC)

Truth be told, I named this article based on AWoIaF using the character's image for Walder Rivers' article. I agree moving this article into "Ryger Rivers" and moving Black Walder into Walder Rivers--Gonzalo84 (talk) 21:27, July 10, 2014 (UTC)

Does anyone want to argue that the bastard son of a milkmaid that Walder yells at in Season 1 is actually Black Walder, and that "Black Walder" (a composite character) was simply recast in Season 3?....I'd argue against this on the grounds that Walder has a lot of children, and the character who said his dialogue was Ryger in the books. I'd rather avoid claiming a character is "recast" when possible.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 22:29, July 10, 2014 (UTC)
At this point there is nothing to suggest that they are intended to be the same character, so it would be inappropriate for us to make this claim. Shall we go ahead and make the moves?--The-Boy 10:10, July 11, 2014 (UTC)
There a lot of quotes for things I never wrote and straw man arguments. I don’t think everything is open to personal interpretation nor did I write that. When I wrote about interpretation, I was clearly only referring to this specific situation where you want to fill in gaps. Nowhere in the TV series did Bryan McCaugherty’s character says, “Hello, my name is Ryger Rivers” so you have to use conjecture no matter what, which is a form of interpretation. McCaugherty’s character doesn’t exactly fit for Ryger Rivers and why it has been Walder Rivers for so long. I just read that passage in AGOT novel and Ryger Rivers has one physical description, young. He’s mentioned as young more than once. Why cast Bryan McCaugherty when he isn’t young and then why put him in a grey haired wig if they wanted him to be Ryger Rivers? That isn’t totally unimportant to this whole thing. I didn’t want to make a big thing of it and “pout” and I don’t think you’ll do anything differently because I wrote any of this, but I honestly just believed that it would be simpler for a casual non-booker fan (which I was) if the information was a single article and then a line like this wiki currently have had for years without any issue on Steven Blount’s article, “… it is unclear if [Blount] will continue (with the character retrospectively changed to another, miscellaneous Northern lord) or if Stahl is actually replacing him” which is how come I cited Blount and Stahl as an example. Ardilaun (talk) 15:39, July 11, 2014 (UTC)
I'm too busy to argue and I misunderstood some of what you said.
At any rate, consensus with Gonzalo84 and TheBoyWhoCriedDirewolf is to change it. (One of these days we have to find a way to ask the writers about this).--The Dragon Demands (talk) 15:59, July 11, 2014 (UTC)


All we really know about Ryger is that he is younger than Stevron (Catelyn's chapter says that after Stevron (who is in his 60s) speaks, "one of his younger sons", Ryger, speaks).

True, Walder Rivers is the eldest bastard in the books, and thus older than Ryger.

But we're not just considering that "oh, that guy in Season 3 is Walder Rivers".....he's a composite character of Black Walder Frey and Walder Rivers, in which case his age doesn't really matter, does it? (He got Black Walder's age, but Walder Rivers's birth status). If we were arguing that he was just "Walder Rivers" that would be a little different.

But even then, character ages get moved around so much that character dialogue clearly trumps it.

Ryger Rivers is not described as "young", but as "younger than Stevron", a 65 year old man. --The Dragon Demands (talk) 16:11, July 11, 2014 (UTC)

You've move it so that's that, but the two I read in AGOT were "[Lord Walder] dismissed the red-faced youth" and "one of [Lord Walder's] younger sons" and neither reference is in comparison to Ser Stevron and pretty clear he's young. So if Bryan McCaugherty's character is a composite of Ryger Rivers (A) and Ser Walder Rivers (B) and Tim Plester's character is a composite of Ser Walder Rivers (B) and Black Walder (C) than if A=B and B=C ∴ A=B=C. Either way, seems like a lot more work this way since all those links are now dead or to wrong character, but again, it's moved and that's that. Ardilaun (talk) 23:38, July 11, 2014 (UTC)
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