I am deeply upset that this episode portrayed Loras having random sex with another man, Olyvar, when in the books it's fairly clear that he's deeply in mourning after Renly's death and overtly swears he will never love again. Loras and Renly were a committed monogamous relationship lasting many years....now they're sending the message that "homosexuals are promiscuous and can easily move on to another partner"? On the other hand, female fans have complained that we didn't get enough naked man-on-man sex action with Renly/Loras. Frankly, we didn't get any outright "sex act" in this episode either, but we got Loras really grabbing into a naked dude's butt. Still, this does not sit well.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 04:26, April 29, 2013 (UTC)
- I didn't read the books but I agree with you statement over how they depicted homosexual. I would prefer to see Loras stay faithful at his love for Renly.--Karen Valentine
- Well, it could have been worse; I mean Loras wasn't shown to be "pursuing a new romantic relationship" or anything. I mean, a man has his needs. And in real life, someone might have just have attachment-free sex for the hell of it to "drown their sorrows" as it were. Also, chronologically, Renly died 20 episodes ago which is roughly a full year in-universe, so it's not toosudden. On the other hand, there were some who worried that after Renly died, Loras would be relegated to just moping around about Renly for the rest of the entire TV series, not even like, having a political dinner party with Margaery as he did in the season 3 premiere. At least they used it as an excuse to have an almost-sex scene, as opposed to just making it implied off-screen while giving yet more sexposition scenes to the prostitutes. It could have been a lot worse.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 14:48, April 29, 2013 (UTC)
- Ah, good news: Bryan Cogman just gave an interview with Westeros.org, and they said this change to Loras was the only thing they didn't like (that it implied gay people are just promiscuous and he's not mourning Renly). Cogman stressed that many of Loras' scenes were simply cut for time from his original script, and that as written, Loras is indeed presented as mourning Reny, depressed and bereaved - his original script makes it clear he's distraught and just "drowning his sorrows" as it were with random casual sex. Sort of like how Robert self-medicated with whores after Lyanna Stark died but he never "loved" again. But I understand that, that's in a lot of TV/movies/books. Random hookup sex because Loras is distraught after Renly's death. So this wasn't a "drastic change", Cogman actually did write scenes making this more clear, that Loras will always love Renly and is extremely depressed after his death; it just got cut for time. That's not too bad.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 02:39, May 1, 2013 (UTC)
- The whole thing was a plot device for the Lannister's finding out about the potential marriage of Loras to Sansa. There is tons of promiscuous sex in the entire show, there's no need to get sensitive about it in this instance justbecause it was a homosexual person 18.104.22.168 05:06, May 1, 2013 (UTC)
....okay, I think this episode might have just stated that in the TV continuity, Loras is the only son of Mace Tyrell and the first in line heir to Highgarden. I don't understand...the Season 1 viewer's guide had Willas and Garlan in it, but they haven't been mentioned since. Crud, that's a drastic change.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 04:26, April 29, 2013 (UTC)
- Tywin's line was vague enough that it doesn't utterly preclude Willas and Garlan appearing later.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 04:42, April 29, 2013 (UTC)
- Hell, it doesn't preclude Loras being heir to Highgarden "after Willas"--Gonzalo84
Cogman explains House Tyrell in TV-continuity, and when they decide to adapt-out book characters
Okay, Bryan Cogman just gave an interview over at Westeros.org, he was directly asked about this, and he explained: 
- “At this point, in show canon, they’re the only children of Mace Tyrell. Margaery is eldest, Loras is the heir. Considering this plotline dominates the season, it was felt we needed the Tyrell engaged to Sansa (and then Cersei) had to be the Tyrell the audience is familiar with, as opposed to an unseen character.”
First, this establishes that Margaery is indeed officially older than Loras in the TV continuity, to reflect the fact that the actress is slightly older (either way, Loras and Margaery are only a year apart or so, and it isn't that big of a different in a patriarchal society I guess). Quite intriguing is his comment "at this point" -- check out his discussion of "leaving the door open":
Actually, the whole interview is very interesting for the discussion of how characters get included or adapted-out of the TV continuity. You have to remember that the writers are fans and would include all of the book characters if they could, but are constantly struggling with time constraints and narrative constraints. I mean, remember how they moved the Reeds back to Season 3? The writers have to struggle with the fact that some casual fans have trouble keeping the *Starks and Lannisters* coherent in their minds, much less all of these other different factions. They could physically have a dozen characters in each episode who walk on-screen then depart, but TV-first fans would only be confused (once and a while they do give a "wink an a nod" throwaway book-reference that only book-fans will appreciate (Aerion Brightflame and Rhaenyra, for example) but they have to juggle those around. I fully understand that this has to do with the mechanics of streamlining the narrative to fit within TV and remain comprehensible.
Anyway, some very interesting information:
- They honestly had no idea even when making Season 2 if they'd ever be able to fit Shireen into the TV series. Some felt that, worst case scenario, they'd have to cut her out entirely. This was a very real possibility. Thus quite a bit of thought actually went into Melisandre's line that Stannis' wife "gave him no sons"...the writers chose to sit on the fence. If they ultimately had to adapt-out Shireen, the line could be interpreted as "no children" - yet it was specific enough that they could easily later introduce "well, he does have one daughter, but in a patriarchal society it's a problem that he doesn't have a male heir" -- without contradicting themselves. So they're always trying to "leave the door open" for characters they can't fit in at the moment.
- There is officially...no official position, on whether or not Patchface exists in the TV continuity. Cogman even had him in early draft scripts of the episode, but cut him out because it would have been too many new characters too fast (I agree). Cogman says he has absolutely no idea if they will or will not use him in a future episode; they would like to put him in a future episode. The same limbo-state that Shireen was in for Season 2.
- In the TV-continuity....apparently, Matthos Seasworth was Davos' only child. I understand that he was a condensation of four sons in the books...but I'd be surprised if they don't include Davos' younger son. Well, three sons....the TV show hasn't stated on-screen "Matthos is his only son", so my hope is that in a later season they at least condense his three younger sons into another composite character, "Devan Seaworth". Cogman didn't mention leaving the door open for that though...but I say, the door is still technically open.
So "at the moment", Willas and Garlan have been cut from the TV continuity, however, Cogman said this in a very ambiguous way an stressing that they do try to include book characters whenever possible, or leave the door open for their future use instead of writing them out definitively....so I don't know if we should entirely give up on the possibility of Willas and Garlan in the TV continuity in the future.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 03:10, May 1, 2013 (UTC)
Willem and Martyn
This episode confirms, as I tried in vain to stress last week, that Robb was being sarcastic when he said "Tywin doesn't care if we have his father's brother's grandsons!" --this episode explicitly stated them to be Tywin's nephews.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 04:26, April 29, 2013 (UTC)
- Even if Robb wasn't being sarcastic, those two would've still been his nephews.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 04:45, April 29, 2013 (UTC)
Jaime's love for Cersei
Jaime's reaction and collapse after hearing his sister was alive and well --- SWOON! QueenBuffy 04:42, April 29, 2013 (UTC)
- She's been fucking Lancel, and Meryn and Pycelle for all I know.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 04:45, April 29, 2013 (UTC)
- Yes yes and I know Jaime will be upset finding that out, but I still love him for his undying devotion. I don't understand why people are shipping Jaime and Brienne...it's obviously not gonna happen. He only loves Cersei. :) QueenBuffy 04:51, April 29, 2013 (UTC)
...one of the things that starts to become apparent in the books at this point...again my whole "Cersei is attached to the mental constructs of people she loves, not the real people" thing....is that Jaime was honestly and truly loyal to Cersei....yet Cersei never "loved" Jaime, so much as her own idea of the man she wanted him to be.
I hope we...I love this thing Star Trek: Deep Space Ninedid with the main villain, Gul Dukat, where you think he's just hitting on Kira until in later seasons you realize he's a delusional womanizer who has a whole make-believe fantasy life in his head where Kira loves him absolutely. He's a total stalker. An it starts out very gradually...but then incrementally....like, Garak will point out that Dukat is married and has several childreneven as he hits on Kira, and it gets worse from there. How he honestly believes that the DS9 crew think he's a wonderful guy and Sisko considers him a friend (this is actually a major symptom of classic psychopathy; delusional belief in deep seated emotional attachments with other people that don't exist....much like how Littlefinger delusionally thinks Catelyn is in love with him).
Anyway, to get to the point, they had this whole idea for an episode called "Dukat's Head" which would be like a dream-sequence episode in which Dukat is dreaming/hallucinating his own "perfect day" in the made-up fantasy life that he's made for himself. In it, Kira utterly adores him, he's the beloved commander of DS9 and the Bajorans worship him, and he's the beloved ruler of Cardassia. The whole episode would be the regular cast walking around for an hour talking about how great Dukat is. They ultimately scrapped much of this idea -- it turned into the pivotal episode "Waltz" which retains similar themes.
But that would be interesting for Cersei like 5 seasons from now; give her an extended dream-sequence in which she's going through reality as it oughtto be, as she prefers it. In "Cersei's Head":
- Joffrey is a wise an benevolent king....absolutely nothing like his real-life personality, which she helped shape and raise.
- Myrcella and Tommen never speak and are little more than background extras (this gradually becomes very apparent, not sure how).
- Jaime serves as Hand of the King under Joffrey, and he's also really great at it.
Remember in episode 1 when Cersei was urging for Jaime to be Hand of the King? Turns out, as later books reveal her POV....Cersei is obsessed with the idea that Jaime was sooner or later going to be Hand of the King....even as he repeatedly told her 1 - He doesn't want to be Hand of the King, as he holds politics in contempt 2 - He openly admits he isn't particularly qualified to be a politician and wouldn't even be good at it, and 3 - So many other nobles in the ream hate him as "the Kingslayer" that it would be simply impractical to make him Hand of the King.
Turns out people have been forcing Jaime's life into their own fantasized assumptions for a long time. Cersei always just tacitly assumes that she'll eventually manage to make him Hand of the King. Notice how Tywin says he considers Jaime his heir...even though he cannot inherit as a Kingsguard and has taken a lifetime appointment. Tywin also just tacitly assumes that sooner or later, he'll have enough power and influence to have Jaime removed from the Kingsguard.
Neither Tywin nor Cersei seem to understand that the one constant in Jaime's life has been knightood, and Kingsguard are the epitome of Knighthood. He wantsto be a Kingsguard and nothing else.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 05:04, April 29, 2013 (UTC)
- I agree. This season is really showing how honorable Jaime actually is- I think perhaps he's even surprising himself...or maybe it was just that he never showed this side, until now. Even tonight, when he was telling the story of the Mad King. Brienne completely understood the reasoning behind the death now. Oh I just adore Jaime!!! Is it too far a stretch to even say he's more honorable than Tyrion?? QueenBuffy 05:13, April 29, 2013 (UTC)
- For the record, my list of favorite characters in the entire book series is actually: 1 - Daenerys, 2 - Jaime, 3 - Myrcella. Okay more like a tie between Myrcella an Shireen, and they don't actually DO much, but it's sort of the whole thing that...they're the new younger generation growing up amidst all this madness, and one way or another, they're going to end up inheriting the mess their parents' generation left behind (similarly, the younger Martells and Rickon Stark are cool).--The Dragon Demands (talk) 05:38, April 29, 2013 (UTC)
- I'm starting to like Jaime more and more. It's just hard for me to get past him pushing Bran out of the window, the incest thing is pretty detestable, but it's not being shoved down our throats so much I tend to forget about it. 22.214.171.124 05:09, May 1, 2013 (UTC)
Lord Commander/Small Council planned from beginning?
I wonder if they planned this from the beginning, i.e. breaking down the seasons in advance, they knew even in season 1 that they weren't going to use "Arstan Whitebeard" - have Barristan hang around for almost all of Season 3 without Dany knowing who he is but we the audience knowing his true identity. I think it was a good idea to drop that; there are things that work in a book that don't in a visual medium - for example, the Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King movie cut out the "Dernhelm" thing (in which even Merry doesn't realize Eowyn is a woman and the princess) because you can get away with that in a book, but in a movie, Merry would seem too foolish not to recognize her.
So I suspect that they knew going into Season 1 that Barristan would openly declare himself to Dany at the beginning of Season 3....raising the problem that Barristan in the books knew that Jorah was spying on her for Varys earlier.
The solution they would then come up with is "Robert doesn't like having Barristan around at Small Council meetings because he served the Targaryens" -- which is a simple enough reason; certainly, Robert could still respect him as a guard to protect the king's life, but not want to hinge policy decisions on him (actually that might sound kind of weird, but not implausible.
I wonder if Bryan Cogman noted our confusion on the whole "shouldn't a Lord Commander sit on the Small Council?" thing. Good that we got closure on this.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 04:49, April 29, 2013 (UTC)
Understandable so noone will confuse Eddard Karstark with Ned Stark. I do hope the Alys' subplot is kept for Season 5/6. She's one of my favorite characters.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 04:50, April 29, 2013 (UTC)
- They've been spacing it out so we don't get too many names to remember at once; but someone has to be in charge of House Karstark now.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 04:52, April 29, 2013 (UTC)
- That would be Arnolf, unless they simply change the name of the surviving Karstark brother if they choose to keep the entire Karstark subplot untouched. I'm just starting to cross my fingers for Barbrey Ryswell and Wyman Manderly, and hopefully one of the Greatjon's uncles--Gonzalo84 (talk) 05:41, April 29, 2013 (UTC)
Even if I'm not fan of Tywin,I want to applaud how dreaded he was in this episode.In 7 minutes,he showed how charismatic he is. He looked so confident about winning the war against Robb like it's just a question of time.I was pleased to see Cersei's face distorted when he announced he wanted her to marry Loras.She thought that she could manipulate her own father for her sake,serve her right!He told her the last time that she could "contribute".Now I want to see if she's going to be loyal.--Karen (talk) 14:53, April 29, 2013 (UTC)
- I've been meaning to put this out: in Season One, Daenerys was among the Dothraki all the time, even for much of Season 2 this was her core group of followers. She is and remains a khaleesi of the Dothraki even to her latest appearance in the books. However - as Westeros.org has noted - it's reached the point where very casual TV-first viewers have taken to calling her "khaleesi" thinking this is her actual NAME, and not even realizing her name is "Daenerys" (she says her name in god-damned subtitles when she speaks in Dothraki or Valyrian! It's printed out on-screen! How can people not realize this?!)
- Anyway, I enjoy almost the thematic point that up until now, Daenerys has been this exile forging her own path out amongst the Dothraki, being called khaleesi by Jorah. But then in Season 3, she is introduced to Barristan Selmy....a longtime knight of the Kingsguard for her family, deeply associated with the royal court itself, who knows much about the different political factions in the Seven Kingdoms - in the books, Daenerys points out that things like "Casterly Rock" are just a name to her, like from a storybook. In contrast, Barristan knows the Lannisters of Casterly Rock. But Barristan treats her as a "Queen", heir of kings he personally knew, and the person who should rightfully kick the Lannisters off the Iron Throne.
- Thus, I'm sort of trying to play up that contrast: she was "only" a khaleesi to Jorah, but "queen" of a continent-spanning empire to Barristan.
- But the short version is, it's getting really irritating that some of the stupider casual fans think her actual nameis "khaleesi" not "Daenerys", so I'm actively trying to discourage ANY further use of "Khaleesi" outside of a Dothraki context, and start calling her "Queen" more in cast lists. Also hypes up her claim to the Iron Throne.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 02:36, May 1, 2013 (UTC)
Nothing about Stannis scenes on this page
Curious, this was one of the more interesting parts of the episode to me. It does a lot for the character development of Stannisand really adds to his humanity.
And none of the battle scene between Sandor and Beric Dondarrion.
126.96.36.199 05:14, May 1, 2013 (UTC)
1 - It is May and finals season during the end of the semester. I am busy writing my Master's Thesis. Thus I wasn't able to finish all of the sections. What, you're really that reliant on me to write these things for you? And rather than type up the missing sections yourself, you'd rather complain?
2 - You haven't made a single edit to this wiki before this post, complaining that I'm not taking enough time away to do work you won't even touch. I'm permanently banning your IP address.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 17:42, May 6, 2013 (UTC)
The guy next to Bolton in Harrenhal
Maybe it is worth mentioning in the article that Shireen's songs both in the episode and in the credits are quotes by Patchface (and thought as a "nod" to him according to Cogman)? Ansdan00p (talk) 21:57, October 9, 2017 (UTC)