Talk:Gender and sexuality

R'hllor

Don't forget that the religion of R'hllor also practices sacred prostitution. It is mentioned in the novels and in the Histories & Lore by Thoros.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 15:58, July 25, 2015 (UTC)

I haven't gotten that far yet, but yes, I did not forget.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 17:02, July 25, 2015 (UTC)

Pillow-biter

I look forward to reading this when it's finished. However, your explanation of the term "pillow-biter" is incorrect. The recieving partner bites down on the pillow due to the pain/discomfort of being penetrated.--The White Winged Fury 18:15, July 27, 2015 (UTC)

...might not pain and pleasure be a mix?

I'm sorry I keep having to do this in spurts, I'm in the middle of an annoying summer semester course that ends next week.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 20:23, July 27, 2015 (UTC)

Of course, but if we're speaking strictly in terms on the origins of the word, then it would be incorrect. Although it's not a big a deal in truth, just thought I'd point it out. I'm enjoying this so far.--The White Winged Fury 12:12, July 28, 2015 (UTC)

Yeah...one of the reasons their use of the term was so annoying is...I've actually never heard the term at all. I mean not only is it modern, it's downright obscure, making it more silly than anything. I had to look up the definition online, and it's so obscure I'm not even getting clear definitions. So yes, I'm going to just leave it as "it's a modern term" and interlink it to the wiktionary entry. Let them deal with defining it.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 19:19, August 8, 2015 (UTC)

Rearrange order and synthetize

I think the order of the article should be as such:

• In the show
• In the books
• Short for real life

--Gonzalo84 (talk) 17:00, August 26, 2015 (UTC)

I'll play around with it then.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 17:06, August 26, 2015 (UTC)

...regarding some of the criticisms about this...yeah I got really carried away with the real life section. I need to shorten it.

Right now "real life" and "in the books" are done, still working on the TV series part, but I'm going to switch to somehow shortening the "in real life" parts....let me play around with this...--The Dragon Demands (talk) 01:55, August 27, 2015 (UTC)

Yikes, I can't believe I let this get so carried away; you guys were right, I need to shorten a lot from "in real life"...--The Dragon Demands (talk) 07:01, August 27, 2015 (UTC)

MAJOR REWRITE

I have taken these criticisms to heart: I got carried away and upon finishing, realized I had gotten drastically carried away with the "In Real Life" section. (This is why it is better to wait until I say I'm finished...) but that's in the past.

Anyway I gutted it down to the bare-bones major points: the four major points about patterns of sexuality in Medieval Europe, their concept of gender binary, and status of homosexuality. I also trimmed these extensively.

A few other things I cut down to a sentence or paragraph and just shoved in as a note in the "in the books" section.

Still writing up the In the TV series section, but please review.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 15:18, August 29, 2015 (UTC)

Finished

The whole thing is finished.

I drastically rewrote it since last time.

I really, really think it needs to be in the order "real life, books, TV series", because each section builds on the last. The TV series section says only "this is how it is different from the novels", while the "books" section repeatedly refers to terms and concepts from the "in real life" section (though I shortened the "in real life" section as much as I could, or moved around a point here or there to the "in the books" section just as a stray comment).--The Dragon Demands (talk) 17:49, September 15, 2015 (UTC)

Each section builds on the last in such a way because you wrote it that way. The whole wiki has an established order: the TV show, then the books (and it is that way because this is a GoT wiki; the GoT info comes first, and then the comparison to the books; that's the way it makes sense.) The real-life section may be a loose one, but the other two are quite clear. You've had quite a while to reorganize it, since Gonzalo pointed out the correct order, yet I haven't seen you try and reorganize it. —ArticXiongmao (talk) 20:51, September 15, 2015 (UTC)

My argument is that it needed to be reorganized when the original "in real life" section was way too long -- so I shortened it drastically, and now I think it makes more sense to put the shorter section first.

My reaction to his request to reorganize it was to try to drastically shorten the "in real life" section and move stuff to other sections -- though I'm not sure if that is sufficient, I did try to address it.

I mean throughout the rest I refer to "procreative/non-procreative dichotomy", etc. OR, at the very least, that the "in the books" section needs to follow "in real life"...plausibly the TV section could go first...I think. I could go either way....yeah, if Gonzalo says the "In the TV series" section needs to go first I won't oppose that.

But the "In real life" part is kind of setup for the "in the books" part, and vital setup information would be lost otherwise.

I mean the heraldry article etc. sets stuff up with in real life sections first too. --The Dragon Demands (talk) 22:30, September 15, 2015 (UTC)

That makes sense. As I said, the "real life" section doesn't have a precedent. Yet the order between show and books has a long precedent of... the whole wiki. It's really weird and out of place to have the books before the show in this single article.—ArticXiongmao (talk) 22:37, September 15, 2015 (UTC) 

Sodomy in Medieval society

The main page incorrectly states there were no secular laws against sodomy in medieval Europe, plus that it was not punished. Neither of these things is true, as sodomy has been an offense dating back to late Roman law. Sodomy was punishable by death in many cases. I don't know how frequently it occurred, but to say neither was the case isn't true.Mcc1789 (talk) 08:02, March 31, 2016 (UTC)

...I needed to be more clear on this:

It's a difficult balancing act between "readers who have no knowledge of gender studies or history other than what they've absorbed through TV" and "professional academics who actually know what the heck I'm talking about". I've had problems even trying to explain to people that the heterosexual/homosexual divide is a social construct and demonstrably not present in every human society.

So the point is, the general attitude writing this thing was that the target audience is more likely people with no background, as opposed to those who know the complexities. And I was trying to deconstruct the popular stereotype that homosexuals were heavily persecuted in the Middle Ages. Entire BOOKS have been written analyzing exactly what the status of homosexuals was like in Medieval Europe, and in many ways the question is ongoing. This is just my attempt at an introductory primer.

Moreover, I originally wrote a much longer version, until ArticXiongMao and others complained that it needed to be streamlined to keep the "in real life" section to a minimum.

Original version acknowledged the complexities - this is the short, short version.

....In answer to your question, I tried to point this out at the beginning: "Medieval Europe" refers to a medieval period lasting a thousand years, and from England to Spain to Greece. This was not one monolithic culture zone but had a large amount of variation in both time and place.

The Middle Ages generally get divided into 3 sections: "Early Middle Ages" (500-1000), "High Middle Ages" (1000-1348) and "Late Middle Ages" (1348-1500). Sodomy only really started getting routinely punished in the Late Middle Ages, depending on the region.

Death was not a punishment in a majority of cases....we think. Far more common from what we can tell from records in Florence and Venice was to pay a fine (we can't tell if Florence had a big homosexual scene, as it were, or if they just had good written records - thus we have evidence - while the same thing happened in other cities but the police/church didn't keep surviving records about it).

Another major point: just because there was a law on the books doesn't indicate how commonly it was enforced. The churches said one thing, who knows if they were followed. Research tries to focus on records of actual punishments, not just rhetoric.

So without exaggeration, it is possible to write an article JUST AS LONG as this whole thing, debating "what was the status of homosexuals in the Middle Ages? Was sodomy always punished by death? In what regions and at what times?" etc. debating this back and forth. Again, entire books written on the subject....

....This article was just meant to be the tip of the proverbial iceberg.

The other point was that the TV show really "got" it. Season 1, we don't see Loras and Renly particularly worried that they're going to be put to death by religious leaders, without trial, just for being homosexuals. But at the same time it's seen as shameful, so they keep it hidden. It's complicated. But the show did it pretty much the way it's presented in the books, and the way we can sort of tell it was like in many regions in many times in the Middle Ages (again: Richard the Lionheart had sex with men, but no one ever put him to death for it, he just didn't talk about it much in public.)

Your thoughts on this?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 23:59, April 3, 2016 (UTC)