Name
Wikipedia titles all real life coups and attempted coups with the full title of "Coup d'état". Could I rename this article as such, until an official name for the event is released? Salociin (talk) 13:13, April 26, 2016 (UTC)
- Coup d'état is a French term. I felt it was appropriate to use the Anglo term for it because this entire series is basically all set in medieval england. Simpsonsfan1992 (talk) 19:41, April 27, 2016 (UTC)
I renamed it to "Ellaria's Coup in Dorne" because, on a scale of thousands of years of history the wiki will cover, there's probably been multiple coups in Dorne. So his is more specific.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 21:44, April 27, 2016 (UTC)
The future of House Martell
I think we have to wait till the next episode(s) are aired, but I want to remember what was said in What is Dead May Never Die during the meeting between Tyrion and Pycelle, that "Princess Myrcella will wed the youngest son" which implies that Trystane is/was not an only child. The possibility of a introduction of Arianne and Quentyn still exists! --Exodianecross (talk) 16:12, April 28, 2016 (UTC)
- Funny, that was trending on Twitter after the episode aired: Variations of "The only possible way this can be redeemed or at least make sense as a goal is if they're going to introduce Arianne as a rival to Ellaria". But why kill Ellaria for killing Doran...when, ultimately, the Martells DO want to turn on the Lannisters?
- But many reviewers questioned: was this the showrunners shutting down a Dorne plot that wasn't working? In which case, we won't see much of it again? Or....is it them starting an entirely new direction with the Dorne plot which they feel is an "improvement"? Wow.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 20:13, May 1, 2016 (UTC)
Plot mechanics
- 1 - I rewatched the scene from 5.10, and the camera shows them getting on the ship, conversation in cabin ending with Myrcella nosebleed death, and then cuts back to Ellaria and the Sand Snakes still looking at the same ship from the shore.
- 2 - While it is possible that the camerawork was just misleading - the conversation happened in the cabin hours later, but the camera just cuts back to Ellaria looking at the boat earlier - that's RULED OUT because we also see Ellaria herself start to show symptoms of the poison, so she takes the antidote.....implying that the poison took just as long to act on her as on Myrcella. At the least, this would have made more sense if we saw Ellaria and the Sand Snakes hours later in the gardens or something, and then she took the antidote.
So we're stuck with the ship seemingly right out of the harbor, but rather than turn around to A - hope to get some antidote in time, or at least B - inform Doran and punish the Sand Snakes....it keeps going on all the way to King's Landing? They just established that the poison acts faster than that!
- 3 - The plausible explanation raised was that the crew was loyal to Ellaria and wouldn't turn the ship around. But....if that were the case, wouldn't they have killed both Jaime and Trystane?! Without letting Jaime go free to King's Landing?! In fact, why even wait for the ship to get to King's Landing, on the off-chance that Trystane was actually allowed on shore, despite Cersei's protests (she isn't exactly in power right now), and elude their grasp? No, if Ellaria's people had control of the ship they'd have just killed Jaime and Trystane at the first opportunity.
- 4 - So it seems the crew had to be loyal to Doran, and his own son Trystane. In which case....Jaime's letter to Doran is phrased as if he thinks Doran still has a firm grip on power and can easily have Ellaria and the Sand Snakes beheaded. Why....if he was within sight of the shore, why would he sail all the way to King's Landing to send a letter stating that? Why would Trystane? Trystane could command the crew to turn the ship around.
So what we've established here is:
- 1 - The crew almost certainly wasn't loyal to Ellaria but to Doran, otherwise they'd never have let Jaime simply get off.
- 2 - ...the closing scene in the Season 5 finale, of Ellaria starting to show symptoms of the poison while still at the docks, while still looking at the ship....makes no god damned sense. Why would the ship continue on to King's Landing?
This isn't just wacky storyarcs and poor characterizations for Ellaria and the Sand Snakes....which it is....but....basic plot mechanics aren't adding up here, which in some ways is more insulting than a controversial albeit thought-out decision "let's have Ellaria kill Doran".
Wow.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 20:10, May 1, 2016 (UTC)
- It does seem bit weird. Maybe, just maybe Jaime and Trystane were so devastated at Myrcellas death that they stopped acting rationally. I mean it happens in real life. I'm not sure how I would act if my own daughter or wife gets murdered. I would probably just sit on the floor and cry, ignoring everything and everyone else, now matter how emotionally stable I would try to be normally. Jaime could have irrationally thought that Doran killed her, but only came to senses near Kings Landing.
- As for Sand snakes teleporting to Kings Landing. I always thought this was pretty obvious. They simply used another ship. Surely the TV series don't have to hold hands every second? And the actions of course are uncharacteristic of Ellaria, Doran etc. but this is not really good argument because this is TV-series, not the books. 91.155.149.206 00:05, May 2, 2016 (UTC)
Well it shifts the problem around: that the Sand Snakes simply took the next ship to King's Landing and followed like a single hour behind? Not an issue. Like taking one subway car after another.
The problem is the other aspect - that the Season 5 finale both shows the ship still within sight of the shore, AND that the poison acts quickly enough that Ellaria shows symptoms from while still able to see the ship - not hours later - and yet they STILL have the ship sail all the way to King's Landing, instead of just turning back to the port?
Pay attention: it's not something that can be simply waved aside as "you're just annoyed it's different in the books".
Obviously the TV show in this situation is different; the "complaint" is that the difference isn't logical.
Why would Ellaria kill Doran and expect to be able to rule herself? WHY wait to stab him until the moment he received the letter, and not sooner?
And if your answer is "well, that's her characterization in the TV show"....yeah, that's the complaint: that this is a poorly written and illogical character.
Same thing with "why the hell would Thorne in TV version kill Jon for letting wildilngs through Wall when he just let him through the Wall? (it was due to Boltons in the books).
"Well, Thorne is a short-sighted idiot" isn't a rational answer.
With Ellaria....they can't have their writing rely on "our characters are too stupid to act rationally, we write crazy people".
Look you aren't saying that as such but....that's your answer? "Maybe Jaime and Trystane were too shocked to act rationally?" It takes days to travel from Dorne to King's Landing, weeks even.
I'm hearing excuses....bad excuses not even "explanations" which could ever indicate the writers thought this out.
But why do *I* need to complain? Thankfully, all of the major review sites - not even fansites casual TV reviews are heavily criticizing the new Dorne arc.
It's not bad because it's different, but because the difference happens to itself be bad.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 00:22, May 2, 2016 (UTC)
Well, first of all I was merely providing plausible reasons, not explicitly saying something and expecting everyone to take it as a fact. I didn't mean it as that, and I'm sorry if I misled you. I also agreed that it was weird. I don't think I was providing excuses, but simply trying to think plausible reasons. For example I never said Jaimes actions could be explained by simply that this is a Tv-show. And I think your answer is a bit needlessly overaggressive.
Let me just try to again provide plausible reasons.
"Why would Ellaria kill Doran and expect to be able to rule herself?" Well, she wants revenge, and of course thinks she can do better than the current ruler. It doesn't matter if she can actually do that. People often over- and underestimate their abilities.
"WHY wait to stab him until the moment he received the letter, and not sooner?" Perhaps, she wanted Doran and Areo to be together in their palace, or didn't really have other opportunity. Perhaps she hesitated at first. Many assassins of Hitler for example hesitated, it's not uncommon. Many possible reasons, hard to know which one is correct.
"why the hell would Thorne in TV version kill Jon for letting wildilngs through Wall when he just let him through the Wall?" It is possible he again hesitated, I mean he was betraying his lord commander and made that final decision later.
" It takes days to travel from Dorne to King's Landing, weeks even." That is a problem indeed. I don't really know how long such shocks could last. Thought I have heard real life stories of people refusing to eat for weeks. Jaime didn't have same effect from Joffrey, but it is possible that this one was more severe.
You arguments are largely based on irrationality. Problem with this is that many people are irrational. They don't take optimal decisions, instead relying on feelings to make decisions.
Look, I'm not saying that you are completely wrong and that the plots are perfect. I am simply trying to think on this, and provide plausible solutions. 91.155.149.206 00:56, May 2, 2016 (UTC)