Talk:King of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men

Nomenclature
Joffrey is the one currently wearing the crown, so although his position is disputed, we should refer to him as King for the time being. Both Renly Baratheon and Stannis Baratheon want to be King, but it's too soon to refer to them as kins already. - regards, KS - KarinS 11:58, June 21, 2011 (UTC)

Rename article
The term "King on the Iron Throne" is a nickname for Joffrey used in the books and never in-universe. Also, it is not the formal title of the King. The article should be renamed "King of Westeros" and each title the King holds should merit its own article, just like there's an article for "Lord of Winterfell" and "Warden of the North" and "Lord Paramount of the North".--Gonzalo84 19:42, June 10, 2012 (UTC)


 * He's not "King of Westeros" they never claimed the whole continent (in theory), and for many years Dorne was independent. Nor is he "King of the Seven Kingdoms". The in-universe title is "King of the Andals and the First Men (and the Rhoynar)". This reflects common medieval practice. The concept of "England" or "France", did not exist on an abstract level; the modern concept of a "nation-state" hadn't been developed yet. You had the "King of the English", "King of the Franks", etc. It was based on peoples, not abstract concepts of "the State". Yes it should not have an article.--The Dragon Demands 01:38, June 11, 2012 (UTC)


 * Indeed. Though Stannis lays claim to "the Iron Throne of Westeros", not to the "Kingship of the Andals and the First Men" or "Lordship of the Seven Kingdoms". In any case the article should be split.--Gonzalo84 02:57, June 11, 2012 (UTC)


 * The term 'King on the Iron Throne' is used in official HBO documents, including the Viewer's Guide, which is a viable source for the wiki. The term 'King of Westeros' is inaccurate as the Seven Kingdoms do not cover all of Westers (though it's near enough for common usage, as Stannis did). 'King of the Seven Kingdoms' is never used in either book or series, although it is descriptively accurate. The correct term should therefore be 'King on the Iron Throne' or 'King of the Andals and the First Men' (noting again that the Rhoynar and their part of the title have not been mentioned in the series, and should not be included).--Werthead 18:34, June 17, 2012 (UTC)


 * So far the viewers guide has referred just to Joffrey as the King on the Iron Throne... not Robert or the prior kings. "King on the Iron Throne", "King in the Narrow Sea", "Queen Across the Sea" are just aliases, not titles. I was also uncomfortable with "King of Westeros" so I'll move it to "King of the Andals and the First Men".--Gonzalo84 01:22, June 18, 2012 (UTC)


 * Thank you, I agree.--The Dragon Demands 15:20, June 18, 2012 (UTC)

Rhoynar
I suspect that, in later seasons, they may retroactively establish "and the Rhoynar" when they introduce characters from Dorne. I.e. an episode will air in which they simply state "King of the Andals and the First Men and the Rhoynar". Then again, they weren't kings of the Rhoynar as well until about a hundred years ago so...yeah...--The Dragon Demands 15:22, June 18, 2012 (UTC)


 * I think the show will explain that the King of Westeros is not "King of the Rhoynar" because the Dornishmen were never conquered and remain ruled by their Prince and Dornish law.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 04:04, June 18, 2013 (UTC)

Missing Kings
WARNING: there are minor book spoilers in this topic regarding the line of the Targaryen monarchs. If it's really important for you to know who was the King on the Iron Throne 150 years prior to Game of Thrones, then do not read this.

First of all, we all know that Jaehaerys II did not make it into the show. I understand it, although I think it takes away from Aegon V's character, who is one of my favorite kings in the whole series. However, more kings other than Mad Aerys' father are missing: King Aenys (37-42), the successor of Aegon the Conqueror; King Jaehaerys I the Conciliator (48-103), possibly the most important king of House Targaryen, successor of Maegor; Jaehaerys' son, King Viserys I (103-129), who has most certainly made it into the adaptation; and King Daeron I the Young Dragon, vanquisher of Dorne and who will most likely be introduced later on, successor of Aegon III.

I do not think adding them to this page would do anyone harm - indeed it will prevent history enthusiasts from going into the book wiki and accidentally spoiling themselves (such as I nearly did).


 * We can only make articles on kings who were at least mentioned in the TV series. As of the end of Season 3, the only missing kings are: Aenys I, Viserys I, Daeron I, and Jaehaerys II - though they said they intentionally cut Jaehaerys II. Aenys was a weakling who would only be mentioned in the context of Maegor the Cruel, but hopefully a future "complete guide to Westeros" devoted to Maegor will address that. Meanwhile, I'm confident that Daeron I will be mentioned when Dorne gets introduced. Viserys I might be mentioned if they ever explain what the Dance of Dragons was.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 19:13, June 3, 2013 (UTC)

Well I was hoping that the Season 3 Histories & Lore featurettes would give more info, but no such luck. Jaehaerys II being officially cut from the TV continuity, there are only three remaining kings not yet established in TV canon:


 * Aenys I - weakling older brother of Maegor the Cruel. They have at least stated that Maegor was Aegon I's son.
 * Viserys I - they've mentioned his son Aegon II and his daughter Rhaenyra, but they haven't mentioned him by name and it's not enough to establish him within the TV continuity.
 * Daeron I - The Young Dragon, conqueror of Dorne. I suspect he will probably be mentioned in Season 4 once Dorne is introduced.

--The Dragon Demands (talk) 15:47, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

Also we've finally gotten some general info on who the Targaryen queens were, from the World of Ice and Fire app information. Due to the Targaryens' extreme inbreeding, it's interesting to know the few times that other bloodlines entered into the royal line. The full list goes like this:

Aegon and his sisters were the fifth generation of Targaryens born on Dragonstone, the seventh to rule there. Rulers of Dragonstone were:


 * Aenar the Exile - led the Targaryen exile to Dragonstone just before the Doom of Valyria, along with his son Gaemon and his daughter Daena the Dreamer, whose prophetic dreams encouraged their exodus.
 * Gaemon the Glorious - wed to sister-wife Daena the Dreamer
 * Aegon and Elaena - a brother-sister pair who co-ruled as a wedded couple
 * Maegon - son of Aegon and Elaena. Wife unknown.
 * Aelix, Baelon, and Daemon - three sons of Maegon. Aelix and Baelon ruled in turn but both died without issue, and were succeeded by Daemon.
 * Aerion - son of Daemon and an unknown wife. Wed to Velena Velaryon. Father of Aegon the Conqueror, Visenya, and Rhaenys; widely considered to have fathered bastard son Orys Baratheon (mother as yet unrevealed).

Afterwards, if no sister was available in the current generation, Targaryen men would frequently marry women from House Velaryon, because they were at least other Valyrians. Also everyone descended from Aegon was at least part-Velaryon so the Velaryons would all be cousins to some degree (though I don't know if younger Targaryen daughter later married into the Velaryons, so that later Velaryons descend from Aegon I).


 * Aegon I - married to sister-wives Visenya and Rhaenys. Visenya's only child was Maegor, while Rhaenys had one son Aenys and several daughters.
 * Aenys I - married to Alyssa Velaryon. Born after the Conquest, in 7 AL. Father of Jaehaerys, Alysanne, and Rhaena.
 * Maegor - somehow succeeded ahead of Jaehaerys. Forcibly married two of Aenys I's sisters, then a woman named Jeyne Westerling; had eight wives in his lifetime, sometimes with multiple wives at the same time, but died without issue. Killed some of his wives, may have married/killed Rhaena.
 * Jaehaerys I - married to Alysanne, with whom he had nine children.

The generation between Jaehaerys and his grandson Viserys I is one of our biggest gaps in knowledge. He had one son named Aemon and another named Baelon. Aemon married Jacelyn Baratheon and their daughter was Rhaenys, the "Queen Who Never Was". Rhaenys married Corlys Velaryon (world-famous navigator and explorer), and had two children: Laenor and Laena Velaryon. After Rhaenys died two bastard brothers were legitimized: Addam of Hull and Alyn of Hull. Unknown if the Addam and Alyn Velaryon were actually the bastards of Corlys himself.


 * Viserys I - grandson of Jaehaerys I through unknown path. Married twice. First marriage was to a woman of House Arryn, producing only Rhaenyra Targaryen. Second marriage to Alicent Hightower produced Aegon II, Aemond One-Eye, and Daeron the Daring. Also daughter Helaena, who married Aegon II.
 * Meanwhile, Viserys I's younger brother Daemon married Laena Velaryon, while Rhaenyra married Laenor Velaryon. Rhaenyra had three sons with Laenor before he died, though some suspect they were all bastards (irrelevant as they all died without issue). Daemon had twin daughters with Laena: Baela Targaryen and Rhaena Targaryen, called "Rhaena of Pentos" because she grew up there during her father's campaigns. Baela and Rhaena were thus the granddaughters of Rhaenys, great-great-granddaughters of Jaehaerys I (through the female line).
 * Rhaenyra remarried to her uncle Daemon, producing Aegon III and Viserys II.
 * All three of Rhaenyra's older sons died without issue. Addam Velaryon died without issue, though Alyn Velaryon survived. Fate of Baela and Rhaena unknown (also, fates of any possible cousins resulting from Jaehaerys having nine children are unknown).
 * Aegon II usurped Rhaenyra, leading to the Dance of the Dragons.
 * Aegon II had three small children with his sister-wife Helaena: twins Jaehaerys and Jaehaerya, and Maelor. Jaehaerys, Helaena, Aemond, and Daeron all died during the Dance. Three year old Maelor presumably died because by the end of the two year long war, Aegon II had no male heirs. Aemond fathered a bastard child with Alys Rivers (heavily pregnant when he died), but fate unknown. Aegon II later died at the end of the Dance.
 * Aegon III - married Aegon II's daughter Jaehaerya to end the civil war, but she died without issue - ending the bloodline of Aegon II. Aegon III then remarried to Daenaera Velaryon, mother of his five children.
 * Daeron I was married but died without issue.
 * Baelor the Blessed refused to marry any of his three sisters and thus died without issue.
 * Of the "Maidens in the Tower", Rhaena became a septa and had no children; Elaena married three times (twice for politics, once for love) and had seven trueborn children, but later had an affair with Alyn Velaryon which produced two bastards, Jon and Jeyne Waters. Daena, meanwhile, had an affair with her first cousin Aegon IV which produced Daemon Blackfyre.
 * Viserys II - son of Rhaenyra, wife unknown. Father of Aegon IV, Naerys, and Aemon the Dragon-knight.
 * Aegon IV - Married to Naerys but had vast number of bastards, and nine official mistresses. Legitimized four bastards on his deathbed due to their noble blood: three sons (including Daemon Blackfyre) and one daughter.
 * Daeron II - son of Aegon IV though possibly fathered by Aemon. Married Myriah Martell to secure a political alliance with Dorne.

After Daeron II, the text doesn't mention who the wives of Targaryen kings were until Aerys II's sister-wife Rhaella (well, Aerys I married his sister Aelinor, but they died childless). So the queens of Maekar, Aegon V, and Jaehaerys II are unknown. Also gets complicated with all of the distant minor Targaryen cousins and such (Martin outright stated that Aerion Brightflame probably had bastard children).

Well, more info as it comes. But it will be good to finally figure out that mysterious generation of Jaehaerys I's children.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 21:25, March 30, 2014 (UTC)

Update Season 4
Good, as expected "Lives of Four Kings" appeared at Joffrey's wedding, establishing Daeron I for the first time anywhere, and also Aegon IV and Daeron II in dialogue for the first time.

At this point, therefore, the only kings not established within the TV continuity on any level whatsoever are Aenys I and Viserys I.

Though maybe Viserys I is implied because there is a Viserys II, but no, that's too much. I do hope we get more mentions of him later, as we do have mentions of Rhaenyra and Aegon II.

Wait let's see now...we've got kings established in dialogue, or king's established in secondary stuff like screenshots or animated featurettes:


 * Aegon I - mentioned in dialogue
 * Maegor the Cruel - mentioned in dialogue
 * Jaehaerys I - mentioned in dialogue
 * Viserys I - not mentioned in anything
 * Aegon II - mentioned in dialogue (not by name, but enough in context)
 * Rhaenyra - mentioned in dialogue, by name
 * Aegon III - mentioned in dialogue (not by name, but in context of his mother)
 * Daeron I - mentioned by name
 * Baelor the Blessed - mentioned by name
 * Viserys II - established through on-screen text
 * Aegon IV - mentioned by name
 * Daeron II - mentioned by name
 * Aerys I - established through on-screen text
 * Maekar - mentioned in dialogue
 * Aegon V - mentioned in dialogue
 * Jaehaerys II - intentionally omitted
 * Aerys II - the Mad King

So let's see here...

Viserys II and Aerys I are only established by on-screen text but we took it as enough to keep articles on them.

Viserys I and Aenys I still haven't been introduced into the continuity at all.

Part of me worries that they might cut Aenys I entirely just to simplify it to Maekar, even though I don't see any real reason to do that (they barely mention Maegor on screen, why simplify something only book fans would recognize?) -- The Dragon Demands (talk) 05:01, April 14, 2014 (UTC)

Aenys I and Viserys I
Every king has been accounted for except for Aenys I and Viserys I (and they explicitly stated that they cut Jaehaerys II out of the TV continuity).

I was looking over screencaps of the "Lineages" book again, and found that there was actually mention of Aenys I...not much, prop-books seem semi-canon, but it's the same justification we used for including Daemon Blackfyre, as well as Aegon IV (before Aegon the Unworthy was established by Season 4 dialogue). So I wrote up a page on Aenys Targaryen.

That leaves only Viserys I before we have a complete lineage stretching from Aegon I to Daenerys.

...I propose making an article on Viserys I anyway. We do have indirect evidence of him:


 * Rhaenyra has been mentioned on-screen and that her brother fed her to his dragon.
 * In Season 1, Viserys is explicitly introduced in dialogue as "Viserys, the third of his name"...so while they could (absurdly but you never know) introduce a change and make Rhaenyra Jaehaerys I's daughter or something, that would introduce a retcon about there being TWO kings named Viserys before. The Lineages book already established Viserys II, father of Aegon IV.

If this was just information from an on-screen book I might rule it out (if we only had "Viserys II" mentioned in a book once), but the fact that Viserys is introduced as the Viserys the Third in on-screen dialogue makes it more official to me. Mostly just a placeholder, but all we need is Viserys I and we have a complete list.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 22:58, July 12, 2014 (UTC)

As of the Season 4 Histories & Lore
Mentioned in TV series dialogue:


 * Aegon I
 * Maegor
 * Jaehaerys I
 * Aegon II (not by name)/Rhaenyra
 * Aegon III (not by name, but "Rhaenyra was fed to her dragon while her son watched")
 * Daeron I the Young Dragon
 * Baelor the Blessed
 * Aegon IV the Unworthy
 * Daeron II the Good
 * Maekar
 * Aegon V the Unlikely
 * Aerys II the Mad

Leaving Histories & Lore and other "ancillary" material (prop books and such):

Aegon III
 * Viserys I - finally at least mentioned in the Season 4 Histories & Lore, though not by name, just as "the father of Aegon II and Rhaenyra" etc. Also the main TV series mentions "Viserys III" implying there were two others.
 * Viserys II - similar to Viserys I, though he does prominently appear in the prop lineage book (even though not everything in that is canon).
 * Aerys I - appears in the lineages book, though they call the Mad King "Aerys II" establishing that there must have been an "Aerys I".

The only one they haven't really alluded to on any level is Aenys. At least with the Viserys and Aerys kings they implied that they existed. Yes he appears in the lineages book but it's not always canon. Well, I'm sure Season 5's Histories & Lore will explain more about Aenys and Maegor and the Faith Militant uprising.

--The Dragon Demands (talk) 21:42, February 25, 2015 (UTC)

The Children
I just noticed that in "The Children", when Missandei introduces Fennesz to Dany, she does so by the full title from the book ("Queen of the Andals and the Rhoynar and the First Men"). -- SaganamiFan (talk) 14:47, June 16, 2014 (UTC)


 * I asked David J. Peterson, as the line was in Valyrian, but he said that's what was written in the script he was handed, it wasn't a mistake due to miscommunication or something. The show has simply contradicted itself.  "First of His Name" has Tommen being crowned "King of the Andals and the First Men" during his coronation...when Oberyn Martell is STANDING right there in front of him (and he's a Dornishman/Rhoynar descendant).  Then suddenly they include the proper title "of the Rhoynar"?  Even Westeros.org pointed out that this is the first time they've used the full book title.  Both episodes were written by Benioff and Weiss so this isn't a miscommunication between them and another writer like Cogman or something.


 * This is one of those things we need to directly ask the writers about. Not that we have access to them at present...but the next time WinterIsComing.net does a Q&A with Cogman we really need to submit this to figure out which version it is in the TV show continuity's canon:  it can't be both.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 21:27, July 4, 2014 (UTC)

King of the Andals and the First Men... and no Rhoynar
Perhaps it's just a theory, but according to the TV series it's also possible, as explanation, the the Rhoynar were deleted from the title because Dorne started a period of isolation after Robert Baratheon occupied the throne. Prince Doran and Prince Oberyn blamed him for the death of Elia Martell, their sister, and her children, their niece and nephew. --Exodianecross (talk) 20:26, July 8, 2014 (UTC)


 * That's what we don't know at the moment; why would Daenerys call herself "Queen of the Rhoynar"? I doubt Doren's isolation would be any reason to drop the title after Robert's Rebellion.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 20:30, July 8, 2014 (UTC)


 * It's just a explanation for the series! For example Bronn was in the series the commander of the Goldcloaks, but never in the books! It was a condensation, like many things! And the producers left the Rhoynar out because the haven't appeared till Oberyn, Ellaria and the other Dornishmen. So we are still searching for so many differences ;)! --Exodianecross (talk) 00:41, July 9, 2014 (UTC)


 * This is not remotely comparable to such a minor difference as Bronn being commander of the City Watch. For three seasons the TV series omitted "of the Rhoynar", even omitted it during Tommen's coronation, when Oberyn Martell is standing right there....and then suddenly reintroduced it with Daenerys in the Season 4 finale.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 00:51, July 9, 2014 (UTC)


 * I totally agree! But I also know it's impossible to create a series after books like 1:1! And the producers have made good condenses, changes, etc. But this wasn't one! --Exodianecross (talk) 01:13, July 9, 2014 (UTC)


 * ...this isn't a "condensation". This is simply an error.  To be clear:  I don't mind if they later state "saying 'Rhoynar' in the Season 4 finale was a mistake; that shouldn't exist in the TV continuity"....but right now, we're getting conflicting messages.


 * They are beholden to the fanbase who they tried so hard to win over back in Season 1. --The Dragon Demands (talk) 01:21, July 9, 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, you've misunderstood me, I didn't want to say that to left the Rhoynar out was a condensation. A condensation is like that what they've done with Loras, he took over the parts of his two brothers! We all know that the Rhoynar weren't mentioned because they haven't appeared until season 4 and the producers had the intention not to confuse the viewers, because they haven't done the series just for the readers. --Exodianecross (talk) 08:55, July 9, 2014 (UTC)

"Of the Rhoynar" revisited
"Of the Rhoynar" was an easter egg for book readers... those not obsessed with consistency, anyway. Cogman said so in an interview (the Game of Owns one from that year, maybe?). —ArticXiongmao (talk) 00:00, September 26, 2015 (UTC)

....really??! I mean I thought I listened to all of the Cogman interviews and took notes. Can you find a source for that? --The Dragon Demands (talk) 00:02, September 26, 2015 (UTC)

It would have to be either the 2014 Cogman GOO episode or... didn't he do an interview for another podcast, too? I don't know. Can't quite recall. —ArticXiongmao (talk) 09:39, September 26, 2015 (UTC)

...Well I'm working on other stuff now and don't have time to search if we're not even sure where to search. However, if you can check Cogman's comments on your own, yes, please present any relevant info back here, and we'll make note of it.

Otherwise GRRM himself basically described it as if the "of the Rhoynar" title was officially changed in the TV continuity - that is, as a very conscious and intentional decision and not mere omission, etc. etc. My writeup on the article is done now.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 20:38, September 26, 2015 (UTC)

Not my job to correct your mistakes, especially if it involves listening to an hour or two of podcasts. —ArticXiongmao (talk) 20:53, September 26, 2015 (UTC)

..."my mistakes"? You aren't even certain that Cogman said this and have no citations. Also it happened in the Season 4 finale, not the episode Cogman wrote. You have to do the legwork on points you want to introduce.

No, wait, let's focus on this: you claim that a Cogman interview, you can't remember which one, mentioned why the title said "of the Rhoynar" at some point. You say you don't even recall definitively if he actually said this or if you're remembering it wrong. Nor was this a publicly released DVD commentary which I could rationally be expected to have listened to. As it happens, I said I did listen to the Cogman Game of Owns podcast appearance, and at the time I made no note of mentioning the Rhoynar (though there's always a chance I missed it).

So how can you plausibly call this "correcting your mistakes"? How is this my mistake? It's your mistake for not even remembering which podcast it was and for not incorporating it into the wiki when you could. Do I have to do all of your work for you?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 20:58, September 26, 2015 (UTC)

Now it's "my work" to do that, huh? You're a funny guy. I may get around to it sometime, if I want to listen to those interviews again. This is not a job; though, considering how obsessive you get with the wiki, I'm pretty sure you sometimes forget that little fact. Anyway; I know what I heard, I just don't know where (I didn't say I may have remembered it wrong), so I'll leave you some suggestions, if you want to do "my work"; it would have to be either in the Game of Owns podcast or the other podcast I listen to which also interviewed Cogman, A Cast of Kings. Or maybe it was a later interview, if the quote comes from the finale. Have fun. —ArticXiongmao (talk) 21:14, September 26, 2015 (UTC)

...wait a minute...you didn't say the name of the other podcast before and I was more annoyed that you wanted me to find it "out there" somewhere. It couldn't have been in Game of Owns because they interviews Cogman after his episode (number six) but before the finale aired (number ten) in which that line occurred. This narrows things down.

I may have missed the "A Cast of Kings" interview entirely. Oh that changes things, then: yes I will get to listening to this ACOK podcast later today (listening to more than one hour of podcast just seemed like a bit much to ask).--The Dragon Demands (talk) 22:23, September 26, 2015 (UTC)

Title, Season 6
(weeping in a pile of self-loathing)

What the hell do we call the page now, eh?!

Screw it. Screw it all.

Damn them. By the...something...of the...some god...

I don't know anymore. I'm going to go get some fast food and watch cartoons or something.

(throws glass against wall in impotent rage).

God help us all.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 23:32, April 25, 2016 (UTC)

Define claimant (Lannister bias)
This article seems to be highly biased in favor of the Lannisters. Does sitting on the Iron Throne magically make you King/Queen? No. Cersei claims she's Queen, yet pretty much everyone outside of the Red Keep doesn't recognize her as one. Yet Dany has control of the Reach, Dorne, and maybe the Stormlands. Cersei doesn't have anything outside of King's Landing at this point. (remember she kin slayed Kevan and Lancel Lannister and Tryion is on Dany side) Might as well just call herself Queen of King's Landing. We should recognize everyone who called themselves King/Queen of the Andals and the First Men as legit and have a little section dealing with how many people actually recognized them as such. I don't think just because someone sits on the Iron Throne is a good indicator of who is legit monarch.