Talk:Joffrey Baratheon

Joffrey quote
Hello,

It was me who changed the main quote. Didn't notice that wasn't logged in. I changed the quote mainly because it felt too much like a viewer opinion and I wanted a more neutral quote. Sure Tyrion's words summarize Joffrey and we have all seen what kind of person Joffrey is, but I don't think there is much need to emphasize that in the main quote. I would appreciate more subtle approach to this one and get Joffrey's viewpoint. So the quote "A king does not ask. He commands." is more of an inside look and it summarizes Joffrey as a narcissistic boy who feels he can do anything now that he's king. That to me is more effective than just bluntly saying he's an evil idiot.

Hope you write back! I don't want to star a revert war but I'll change the quote back if I don't hear from you. --Martell (talk) 16:43, September 29, 2012 (UTC)


 * I would agree on any other character, even Jaime or even Tywin, as "gray" and flawed, three-dimensional characters. Joffrey, however, is accurately and succinctly summarized by the "vicious idiot king" quote. Unlike most other characters, Joffrey's characterization is not subtle, and its as "objective" to call him a "vicious idiot" as it is to call Aerys II Targaryen "the Mad King". There are other arrogant characters that a quote about uncompromising command could fit; it doesn't even really convey his narcissism. Actually, its pretty effective when Tyrion finally and bluntly spells out that Joffrey is not only vicious, but an idiot, pointing out how stupid it is to order your personal bodyguard of only a dozen men to start attacking a crowd of hundreds of angry peasants. I really wouldn't make such a stand for any other character but Joffrey (and maybe someone like Gregor Clegane). Joffrey really is, bluntly, a vicious idiot, and Tyrion's speech was so great because it was succinctly spelling this out to the audience. Joffrey has no redeeming values. But that isn't really the "point" of Joffrey, you see. Its not that he's insane, there's no question that he's a vicious but incompetent fool. What George R.R. Martin has repeatedly said in interviews is that in his discussions of morality in the themes of his writing, he's fascinated by how even "good" men can willingly follow orders they know to be wrong or repugnant. So the real point is that we're presented that "Joffrey is a maniac", and the thematic question is really, "why the heck do people keep following his orders even when he's this ridiculous?" -- having the Kingsguard beat young girls in the middle of the throne room, etc. They were just "following orders"? Why don't the other courtiers who are just onlookers to this abandon Joffrey? He's not the only claimant to the throne, there are even other kings they could join. And from a legalistic standpoint, there's a widespread (and accurate) rumor that he isn't even the last king's son and has no legal claim to the throne. So why do people keep following his orders? The Lannisters want to put a Lannister on the throne no matter what, but why does everyone else? So Joffrey is one of the few black and white situations, the closest thing to a straightforward "villain" in the story; the point being more about why people still serve him and follow his crazy orders.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 17:47, October 2, 2012 (UTC)


 * My 2c: I prefer the vicious idiot quote as a summation of the character.--Opark 77 (talk) 22:00, October 3, 2012 (UTC)


 * I can certainly see your point. However, I would argue that the producers made an effort to humanize Joffrey in Season 1. They gave him an story arc of sorts. Joffrey starts out as generally unlikeable but he is a spoiled child, who has lived his entire life in a castle far away and has groomed to be a prince. I don't see anything too remarkable on that. But as the season goes on, he starts to showcase signs of narcissism and finally sadism. So at least we did see him turning into a beast instead of just making him the devils cabana boy right from the start. Now of course people who have read the books will probably disagree with me, but remember: I talking about the Tv-show here and it hasn't exactly followed the story right to the letter. Also, if I recall right, producers did mention that are moments where Joffrey express genuine liking toward Sansa. Like the scene where he giver her the pendant. If a viewer wants too see it a sign of his narcissism they are welcome to do so, but I take it as an evidence that it was the Iron Throne that finally consumed him.


 * My other point is that things tend to play out diffrenty between medias. Meaning that while Joffrey is portrayed as a horrible person right from the start in the books, its not really a wise decision to do so in the show. In the books you do also see things from many diffrent perspectives and learn the individuals thoughts at their most rudimentary level. Basically this means that you don't need to have a lot of physical action in the books. But this sort of approach doesn't really work in televison format; case in point: changes with Daenerys' storyline in Season 2. This also means that Joffrey needs to be portrayed in somewhat diffrent manner. You can have a character that's pure evil in a book if it serves a purpose. Thematic question like "why the heck do people keep following his orders even when he's this ridiculous". But the problem is that in televesion you see and hear the action and you can't get inside peoples heads. So it's always an outside viewpoint with television stories and that clashes with the style of the books. So you absolutely need to write Joffrey, a pure evil, as a three-dimensional human being in order for him to be believable in a world where everyone is in the gray area of good-and-evil meter. Pleading to insanity is also not the best solution when explain peoples actions. It's realistic, sure, but not an affective way to tell a story.


 * But before this gets out of hand, let me just say that it's okey summarize Joffrey with the vicious idiot quote if you like it that way. Like I said, it's accurate but I would prefer a quote with a diffrent style . One that points out that Joffrey is still a human when every viewer out there just sees him as a monstrous plot device. Hope we can continue this discussion, it's been vivid. --Martell (talk) 10:31, October 4, 2012 (UTC)