Talk:Breaker of Chains/Jaime-Cersei sex scene

I am still writing this.

However, if any of you out there are reading through it as I go, do you have any comments? Disagree with anything? Please leave feedback on this Talk page.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 02:47, April 5, 2015 (UTC)

I completely disagree with you on Benioff's comments at the Oxford panel being untrue
Dan and Dave have been consistent about Jaime forcing himself on Cersei

In the inside the episode segment ( That was made before the controversy ) They made it very clear that they thought it was rape and have said nothing since then that contradicts that previous statement

The inconsistency about that scene came from director Alex Graves who claimed that the scene was consensual

The Bottom line

You haven't read the original script or was involved in the creative process So claiming Benioff was not being truthful about that scene was wrong and A huge assumption on your part --173.217.207.156

I'm not done writing it yet.

They weren't "consistent": Benioff - once - in the inside-the-episode video made an oddly brief comment about Jaime "forcing" himself, hesitated to use the word "rape" - consistent with the idea that they only noticed how Graves had filmed it long after filming had finished and they felt they didn't have time to change it. Benioff was in damage control mode. Yes I will put this in context when I finish. And didn't you notice that both actors also denied that it was rape, along with Graves?

Second...Graves said it was consensual, Benioff said it wasn't. They contradict each other, but one of them is lying. Why do you assume that it was Graves? At the very least, isn't there a 50/50 % chance that Benioff is lying? (before weighing the other evidence). What makes you automatically assume that Benioff, and not Graves, was being truthful about what instructions if any that Benioff gave Graves?

--The Dragon Demands (talk) 13:41, April 5, 2015 (UTC)

Why do you assume either was lying? None of us have read the script; probably it wasn't spelled out as RAPE in the script, in big bold letters, and Graves (rather problematically) interpreted it incorrectly and passed on the wrong direction to the actors (personally, I'm pretty sure that if, say, Michelle McKlaren was handling the material, she would have realized what the scene was.) This is the most likely scenario, in my mind, and the one the evidence points to. Instead, you assume D&D were covering their asses in that "Inside the episode" video filmed during production, months before any controversy, which is rather cynical, if you don't mind me saying so. Even if you consider it healthy skepticism and not cynicism, you simply cannot know when that interview was recorded; how do you know the scene had been filmed? The interviews are obviously done in big bunches, covering many topics from all throughout the season (e.g. they often wear the same clothes, for completely different issues), so how exactly do you know they had filmed the scene already?

If you will consider constructive criticism on that article, I'd say that it should be an enclylopedic collection of the facts, as this is a wiki, not anyone's personal analysis (e.g. though the in-universe parallel with Tywin is amusing, I don't see how it fits at all here; you should probably have a blog for that kind of thing, as many GOT fans do.) I'm not saying you should present both cases, which would lead to an endless "That's wrong, because..." from the other side. The wiki should present the quotes in context, and leave the readers to interpret them, with no more analysis than putting them in context necessitates. To do otherwise would be disingenious, editorializing and even patronizing to the readers. They can make up their own minds. —ArticXiongmao (talk) 20:09, April 5, 2015 (UTC)

Yes, it probably wasn't spelled out as "RAPE" in the script - because Benioff and Weiss did not intend that - and then Graves simply misinterpreted it. Or at least, the level of "edginess". In which case, neither Benioff nor Graves really intended it as "rape" in as many words.

...I think they were "uncomfortable" in that Inside the Episode video, upon realizing what the scene looked like. Not outright lying. I do agree that I don't want to put much stress on that Inside the Episode video (it's too vague).

...I'm not finished yet. Getting to the meat of the problem: Benioff's retroactive comments at Oxford. Please wait and react to what I have to write about that.

At a certain point we do have to point out "these statements contradict", though I do admit that I worry about controlling the level of "editorialization". The unfinished bits are just stuff I wrote in a burst, please wait until I"m done (I just got up to the Oxford video part....in any of the preceding sections, were there parts you think sounded specifically like editorializing?) --The Dragon Demands (talk) 20:37, April 5, 2015 (UTC)

Okay, on the specific point of Benioff's line in the "Inside the Episode" section, I will fix that by framing it, pointing out that both Vulture.com and TheMarySue.com expressed the view that his statement was too brief and vague to fully understand what he meant, to the point that Vulture attempted to contact him to more fully express himself.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 20:43, April 5, 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, you're right, I should wait until it's finished before making that kind of criticism. It's a work in progress, I get that ;) —ArticXiongmao (talk) 20:48, April 5, 2015 (UTC)