User talk:Gonzalo84

Splitting up the creature templates
I strongly feel that it is a mistake to break up the creature templates. You, I, and other regulars know how to find pages on these different topics - but a major library science principle is to remember that casual users do not even know exactly what they're looking for. Only rarely will they type a proper noun into a search engine. Thus the creature templates are a vital navigation tool, "access points" for people who are casual viewers and browsing their way through information.

I would argue to restore it as it was (mirroring how AWOIAF has one big template for everything). At the very least, I think there should only be a division between sentient beings versus animals (of all kinds) and plants. I also don't think that the Free Folk clans template should be separate from the "peoples" template. Non-human sapient races are also a concern. I strongly feel that separating the templates will harm navigation for casual viewers.

On a separate question...was it ever established that the Hill tribes belong under the "First Men" subdivision? I sort of assumed they may be remnants of the First Men of the Vale driven to the hills, but was their origin ever established in the books? For all we know they're part of the same Andal/First Men mix as everyone else (we've heard no mention of their religious practices, for example).--The Dragon Demands (talk) 21:23, January 8, 2014 (UTC)


 * I agree that I may have been a little extreme with the divisions. the truth is the only thing I found weird is having ine the same template a division of human cultures and ghost grass.


 * As for the Free Folk, since the Free Folk are descended of the First Men I found it weird to have them separate from the mini list that includes Northmen and Crannogmen.


 * Perhaps we can find a middle ground: one template for human cultures and another for all living beings, including a link to a "Humans" article that gives a little overview to humans in GoT setting and links to the different cultures.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 02:42, January 9, 2014 (UTC)


 * Regarding the Hill tribes, I think I have made the same assumption because, based on what little we know of them, their culture is more similar to that of the Free Folk and the Northern mountain clans (clan-based organization, raid-based economy, strenght-based leadership) than to the "more civilized" Andals.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 02:42, January 9, 2014 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I originally put "Free Folk" separately in order to show its subdivisions...how best to portray the three-level subdivision of "First Men-->Free Folk-->Thenn"?


 * Yes, I think we should make it only two templates: one for humans, one for all animals/creatures/plants. Where do we put non-human races? I think they should be with humans - and that the divide should be based on "sapient" or not. I'm still not sure about the Hill Tribes given that we know so little about them, but I could go either way.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 02:51, January 9, 2014 (UTC)

Alton and Cynda Lannister
So they are different Lannisters? who happen to share the same name with the real Lannisters? Nazul Rostello (talk) 12:50, January 15, 2014 (UTC)

Starks to Stannis
Why the shift from the Starks to Stannis?

(I do really like Stannis, in both the books and TV series. An added bonus is that he's actually part Targaryen. When all is done I hope Daenerys leaves Shireen in charge of the Stormlands).--The Dragon Demands (talk) 04:20, January 20, 2014 (UTC)


 * Because the Starks are scattered... for now.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 04:23, January 20, 2014 (UTC)


 * You can still defiantly make your official support for the Starks, much as Brynden Tully's garrison at Riverrun and the Blackwoods at Raventree are doing.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 04:24, January 20, 2014 (UTC)

Our Wikis
Hello! I was wondering, if you would consider having an affiliation w each other? I am the new Reign wiki. :) I love this show so hard and would love to be added on. As you would be added to my page of course. --~ Lorisa! (talk) 01:05, February 1, 2014 (UTC)


 * Administrator QueenBuffy usually handles Wikia affiliation stuff, she can help you out.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 04:09, February 1, 2014 (UTC)

...I never saw this!! kk, thanks! :)

Locations category
Things such as "Winterfell" are categorized as "Locations in the North", but currently are not put in the general category "Locations". Should such locations be in both? "Winterfell: Locations in the North, Locations"? Or, is the "Locations" category meant to be an upper-level organization of the other categories, "Locations in the North", "Locations in the Reach", etc.?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 23:36, February 4, 2014 (UTC)


 * I have taken the task to add everything in "locations" as well as their respective places. I stopped because of your conversation with Werthead. We must choose between "locations" and "geography".--Gonzalo84 (talk) 02:46, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for the rules.

Queen of the Weirds (talk) 09:00, February 17, 2014 (UTC)Queen of the WeirdsQueen of the Weirds (talk) 09:00, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Baratheons' Targaryen relationship from Histories & Lore
Ugh. Check out: Robert's Rebellion (Histories & Lore) -- Varys and Littlefinger.

It says Robert Baratheon had Targaryen blood "through his mother."

As I explain there, in the books Rhaelle Targaryen was his father Steffon's mother -- and Rhaelle was the sister of Jaehaerys II, cut from the show.

The other option we suspected was that the TV continuity used Steffon's blood relationship to Orys Baratheon to justify Robert's claim to the throne...though Orys was never officially acknowledged.

At first I was frumious about this new revelation.

Now I'm starting to think it's not as crazy as it sounds: If they removed Jaehaerys II's generation, perhaps it was a simple matter of making Robert's mother a Targaryen, instead of his grandmother.

In which case Cassana Baratheon gets retconned out of existence (not that it matters much, she died in the shipwreck with Steffon long ago).

Nonetheless we're still not sure exactly how Robert's Targaryen mother would fit into the family tree: Aegon V's sister? TV-Aegon V's daughter, and thus sister to the Mad King?

This was probably the biggest info to come out of the Histories & Lore Season 3 (well that, and I think Joffrey sort of implied that he raped Tommen).--The Dragon Demands (talk) 16:15, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

Orys having Targaryen blood was implied in the "House Baratheon" featurette. The new "Through his mother" doesn't neccessarily imply Robert's mother was Rhaelle, only that his mother had Targaryen blood. As for Tommen I don't think Joffrey raped him but still subjected him to physical abuse.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 18:22, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

Well, Orys becomes a moot point if they say his mother had Targaryen blood. But if she wasn't Rhaelle, who was she? A new composite character?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:32, February 19, 2014 (UTC)


 * Occam's Razor: Cassana Baratheon had some Targaryen blood.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 18:42, February 19, 2014 (UTC)


 * Sorry I haven't been able to help out with the Season 3 Histories & Lore as much as I wanted -- once again, my ongoing work on my thesis is in very bad shape and eating up most of my time. I can only pop in for some of the major stuff, not thoroughly combing through everything. If I don't finish this and my language comps by May I'm not going to get my degree.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 16:49, February 23, 2014 (UTC)

​Targaryen Kings
Hey, could you please read my blog post with the image of the Targaryen kings and tell me what you think? Much appreciated. Greater Good 14:37, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

Garden of Bones
I'm concerned that someone has added information to the plot summary of Garden of Bones that does not happen in the episode. In describing the scene where Joffrey orders Ros to beat the prostitute, someone wrote: "While clearly remorseful for the girls' injuries, Tyrion refuses to let Joffrey bully him or others around." No such event occurs in the episode. In 2013 another IP actually removed a similar statement, but then someone put it back. Summaries should accurately describe the episode as broadcast, otherwise it harms the reliability of the wiki. It's possible there might be a deleted or extended scene - or perhaps the incident is referenced in a later episode where such a scene occurs - but I just watched the episode and it isn't in there. Anyway, I wanted to give you the heads up because if someone is adding either false info, or injecting info from future episodes (or perhaps even the books) that's probably a no-no. 68.146.70.124 15:50, February 21, 2014 (UTC)


 * ...that isn't "vandalism", that's just "opinionated and skewed interpretation". It happens literally every day on wikis. Literally every hour, really. That's the constant struggle to maintain quality. Generically, yes, we know we need quality control checks on past episode reviews, but there is much work to do. Thank you for removing it though, it was not a good interpretation of what happened. If you want to actively help you should probably make a free account to help out.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 16:47, February 23, 2014 (UTC)

Wikia Game of Thrones Review Videos
Hi! I work in marketing for Wikia -- highlighting cool things that our communities are doing around anticipated entertainment.

We've got something fun planned around the return of Game of Thrones and I wondered if you might want to be a part of it. We're producing a short video each week that contrasts fan reactions to the series with a TV critic's reaction -- the idea is to capture the enthusiasm of the community here, and have a little fun back and forth.

I can give ya more details! If this sounds like something you might be interested in, give me a shout on my wall or email brian@wikia-inc.com. Thanks! Brian 15:18, February 28, 2014 (UTC)


 * Hi Brian. I'm quite busy these months so I can't commit to this. Besides, these marketing Wikia things are QueenBuffy's territory.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 19:22, February 28, 2014 (UTC)

Jaime sends his regards
The actors were confused about that line? When did they explain this, in the Blu-ray commentary? What exactly was said?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 21:39, March 5, 2014 (UTC)


 * In the bluray extras about "The Rains of Castamere" they explain that the scripts originally said "Jaime Lannister sends his regards" and even Nikolaj was confused and asked if Jaime really was part of the conspiracy.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 22:02, March 5, 2014 (UTC)

Brackets for Dead characters warning template
This has been happening frequently enough that I put together a quick template warning, so we don't have to waste time writing up individual explanations each time this happens: http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Template:BracketsSignifyDeadCharacters

I based it on the last warning you gave.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 15:39, March 14, 2014 (UTC)


 * I agree. It will save us some time.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 15:45, March 14, 2014 (UTC)

Redwyne and Renly
Please give a quote for what the Season 2 Blu-ray says about House Redwyne: --The Dragon Demands (talk) 23:24, March 12, 2014 (UTC)


 * There are no quotes about House Redwyne whatsoever.--Gonzalo84

But your edit I linked says:

"Unlike what's stated by the Season 2 bluray, in the books House Redwyne doesn't declare for Renly during the early stages of the War of the Five Kings because Queen Cersei Lannister holds the twin sons of Lord Paxter hostage. They do join their Tyrell liege lords in aiding the Lannister army in the Battle of the Blackwater."

--The Dragon Demands (talk) 13:40, March 14, 2014 (UTC)

Oh, about that. The bluray shows the Redwyne sigils as Renly's supporters in the War of the Five Kings special feature.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 13:56, March 14, 2014 (UTC)

Pleasure House
The term "pleasure house" has been used on the TV series, but I think it might be better to merge it into the "prostitution" article with a redirect. Also, do they only call them "pleasure houses" in Essos? I thought Westeros had "brothels".--The Dragon Demands (talk) 20:47, March 14, 2014 (UTC)


 * I wasn't sure that they were called "pleasure houses" excluvisely in Essos. I created the Pleasure house article because of its association with slavery more than the "free women" in the brothels of Westeros.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 21:36, March 14, 2014 (UTC)

Culture infobox
On the culture infobox, some are "feudal-based" (Northerners, Andals, Dornish, ironborn) while others are clan-based (Hill-tribes). What should we do for some groups who are technically clan-based, but who use "House" designations as a formality? The Northern hill tribes haven't been introduced yet, but the book makes it a point that while they're more "clans" than "Houses", they're "civilized" and function as miniature Houses, treated with respect by being called "House Norrey" to be polite, etc. For the moment, we do have a similar problem with the Crannogmen: they live as basically clans, and hunt instead of farming, but they are formally organized and recognized as "Houses".--The Dragon Demands (talk) 21:10, March 14, 2014 (UTC)

I think they should remain in "clan-based" as well.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 21:39, March 14, 2014 (UTC)


 * I think that, specifically for the crannogmen now but later the Northern hill tribes, we should list them as "clan-based" but in the article mention that "they're clan-based but are extended the dignity of being called Houses".--The Dragon Demands (talk) 01:25, March 15, 2014 (UTC)

R'hllor typo in "The Climb"
Did the Blu-ray release fix that typo in the subtitles for "The Climb" which misspelled the FIRST AND ONLY TIME that R'hllor has appeared on-screen?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 19:05, March 15, 2014 (UTC)


 * Haven't bought the bluray yet.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 05:13, March 17, 2014 (UTC)

Back from Thesis
I stopped regularly editing about two weeks ago on February 14th to finally finish my thesis. I'll be catching up in the next few hours.

While I still have language comp tests, my thesis is finished - no more being driven crazy by it. More on this later.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 00:27, March 10, 2014 (UTC)

Misbehaving templates
Sorry it's taken me a while to get around to this; I've sent a report to Wikia's maintenance team, so we should get a diagnosis and hopefully a solution in the next few days.-- 12:24, March 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * It's been going on for weeks and even Wikipedia.org is having problems; but nothing will happen if we don't complain.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:15, March 18, 2014 (UTC)

"Southerner"
I don't think we should use "Southerner" as an official term too much, specifically not in infoboxes. As the article explains, it's actually a fairly vague term, sometimes just meaning "not Northmen" (including Ironborn?); very loosely, "Southerner" can even apply to Dorne. So I think it is better to list people like Tywin Lannister or Catelyn Stark as "Andal" (yes they have some First Men blood, but they're mostly Andal, culturally Andal).

What culture do we put down for House Blackwood? They do...behave, as Andals.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 19:29, March 18, 2014 (UTC)

You're right... Andal may be more fitting. As for the Blackwoods they can remain Andals.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 19:45, March 18, 2014 (UTC)

Stark children religion
What should we put down for the Stark children under the "religion" spot in their infoboxes? It was an interfaith family. Jon Snow specifically said he follows the Old Gods - probably given that he was influenced by Eddard but Catelyn had nothing to do with him. Bran...apparently, just worships the Old Gods, also strongly influenced by his father? And Rickon was influenced by Bran more than Catelyn before she left. Arya of course has the God of Death thing going on, but we have that covered.

I sort of got the feeling that the girls were more influenced by Catelyn than the boys were. In any case, in the books, what was the religion of Robb and Sansa? Robb seemed more Old Gods like his father - yeah the TV show cheated a bit by having him married by a Septon, but Cogman's rationalization made enough sense; he was raised in an interfaith household, fairly open to both, he might have just liked the ceremony or no one else was available. Sansa is a bigger concern: very much her mother's daughter, does she pray to the Old Gods at all? I mean I know she goes to a godswood to pray at times but that might just have been an excuse to get away from everyone.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 15:13, March 19, 2014 (UTC)


 * In the books Sansa finds solace in the Old Gods as a way to reconect with her dead father, and because the godswood is mostly empty. The closest we've got in the series is when she's praying by the tree stump and she's approached by Margaery, but we don't know if that's the Red Keep's godswood. --Gonzalo84 (talk) 22:16, March 19, 2014 (UTC)

Peoples template
http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Peoples

I'm straightening up the Essos section; I added a subheader about the Free Cities.

How should we handle the rest? Particularly the Rhoynar and Valyrians? I'm not sure if we should say they're "extinct" or something...the Rhoynar survived as the Dornish, and the modern Free Cities do have Valyrian blood in them (thinned out, but particularly Lys and the aristocracy of Volantis) and also the Targaryens.

Also, should we make a division between "Central Essos" and "Eastern Essos" (Qarth and Asshai) or would this make the template needlessly complicated and long?

Most importantly, how are we handling the article on "Ghiscari"? Is this about the ancient "Ghiscari" of the old Ghiscari Empire, or about the peoples of Slaver's Bay in the present? (much as "Rhoynar" and "Dornish" are two separate things).--The Dragon Demands (talk) 19:25, March 19, 2014 (UTC)


 * Unlike Rhoynar and Dornish, there is only one name for both ancient Ghiscari and modern Ghiscari, so the "Ghiscari" article should include both peoples, the "pure" Ghiscari of the "Old Empire" and the mongrel Ghiscari of modern Slaver's Bay and New Ghis.

The show won't cover much of the eastern Essos, I don't think we'll ever see Asshai or Yi Ti, and the show hasn't even mentioned their people the way the novels did, so I think we shouldn't do much divisions.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 21:38, March 19, 2014 (UTC)

Bethany Ryswell and Bolton family tree
I want to remake the Bolton family tree to resemble the one on AWOIAF (removing the unnamed miller's wife) - to include Bethany Ryswell. I'm fairly certain that Season 4 will eventually explain who Domeric Bolton was and that his mother was Bethany Ryswell, and we have heard mention of Domeric -- but at this point there's been no in-universe material about it, so would it be getting ahead of ourselves to update the family tree just now? Maybe we should wait until an episode mentions it?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 17:02, March 20, 2014 (UTC)


 * I think we should add Domeric, with his mother being referred to as "Lady Bolton (Deceased)".--Gonzalo84 (talk) 17:16, March 20, 2014 (UTC)

Progress
Okay, I've made some progress with investigating the issue with the family tree templates; apparently it's nothing to do with Wikia, but is being caused by Google Chrome itself! I've checked the pages in Firefox, and they work fine, so that does indeed seem to be the case. The technician I spoke to from Wikia said that the guys on the Fallout Wiki experienced the same problem, and liaised with Google to fix it, so it looks like we're going to have to do that. They're still working on fixing the title blacklist for us.-- 21:22, March 20, 2014 (UTC)

The weird thing is that some trees look good... like the House Stark one

Oh, I didn't realise that the Jon Connington article was written by Greater good; an admin. The title blacklist doesn't prevent admins for creating pages, just regular users. That being said, there shouldn't be anything wrong with it. I'll be contacting the Fallout Wiki admins later today to find out how they fixed their rogue templates.-- 10:55, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

Edit Reverted
Why did you undo my edit on all the pages I edited? That corrected a sentences and added more information? In addition, you gave no reason for that what so ever. It's very frustrating to have all of your work undone and not even get proper reason for why. So, if you could tell me that would be great. Zippertrain85 (talk) 15:26, March 21, 2014 (UTC)

'More' information sometimes is not necessary. I followed the old saying: "if it ain't broken, don't fix it. --Gonzalo84 (talk) 16:39, March 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * Theon: redundant. And mentioning the castration way ahead of time alters the mood of the summary, that should go from the 'generic' torture, then the mind games, then more mind games, the castration, and the renaming into 'Reek'.
 * House Targaryen: If we place "unknown" in the founder section we should add 'unknown' to each article on a house without known founder. Its moot and, again, redundant. You also made a change so 'the East' became 'the Essos'
 * If you see, we try to avoid the term 'Humans' because its never used in the show.
 * In 'Mhysa', to be honest I undid your edit because I wanted to rewrite some parts. If you see I also altered: "Sandor 'The Hound' Clegane" because such wording is never employed in the show.

You didn't "correct" the sentences, you simply reworded them to your liking - without adding new information. Or, when you did add new information, it was too redundant.

Specific example Gonzalo84 already mentioned: The first part of "Theon Season 3" should contain the summary "Theon is tortured by Ramsay"...then describe in chronological order what happened. Instead, you inserted "including cutting off his fingers and castrating him"...which is redundant with the body of the section itself.

Putting "unknown" into the templates for "Founder"...was not "actual work". You only just joined and don't know how templates work; we'd have explained this if you asked. We leave founder blank if "we the audience" don't know who it was, but the characters within the narrative know who the founders of their Houses were.

As Gonzalo84 pointed out, we don't use "humans" on here; no one in the books or TV series uses "humans", they say "people", because non-human races are incredibly rare and believed extinct - and when they DO discuss say, the White Walkers, they talk about the "threat to the realms of men" not "humans".

I myself use "Sandor 'The Hound' Clegane" when first introducing him in an article, just so casual fans know what we're talking about, but I wouldn't use it repeatedly.

"All of your work" was 11 edits. That isn't that many reversions. The edits were not targeted because you made them or something, but judged on a case by case basis.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 19:31, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

Ardilaun
I just gave Ardilaun a one week temp ban for several problems, which I have explained on his talk page. I really need you to weigh in on this. I hope I handled this well but if you disagree I will defer to your decision.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 02:10, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

Tommen and Dean-Charles Chapman Articles
Now that it's confirmed that Chapman is playing Tommen, can those articles be unlocked so they can be updated? Thanks. TheUnknown285 (talk) 19:16, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for getting on that so quickly, Dragon Demands. Can you also unlock the Chapman article? Thanks. TheUnknown285 (talk) 19:32, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

"Must Watch" Videos
This unsightly blemish has made a reappearance on some pages today. I want to complain to Wikia directly, and make it clear that we want this thing gone before S4 premiers. Just making sure we are all of one mind regarding this?-- 13:47, March 25, 2014 (UTC)


 * It showed up again a few days ago. I completely agree with you.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 15:58, March 25, 2014 (UTC)

How "Objects" category works
"Books" are a subcategory of "Objects". Does a single Book article, such as "Book of Brothers", get both the "Books" and "Objects" categories added to it, or just the "Books" category? The book articles are not currently consistent on this.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 03:20, April 1, 2014 (UTC)


 * Hmmm I'll defer to your judgment.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 05:44, April 1, 2014 (UTC)


 * Well, currently, "Arya Stark" is in the "Characters from the North" category but not the wider "Characters from Westeros" category, and "Syrio Forel" is in "Characters from Braavos" but not "Characters from Essos". It stands to reason that "Books" alone is enough for a Book article, not both "Books" and "Objects".--The Dragon Demands (talk) 05:49, April 1, 2014 (UTC)

RED ALERT: HBO Viewer's Guide has been rebuilt from scratch
https://twitter.com/westerosorg/status/451098779811598336

The HBO Viewer's Guide has been rebuilt from the ground up. As Westeros.org pointed out, it is very "Web 3.0" -- blatantly designed for use on iPhones more than ease of use on laptops. You have to scroll down using a mousewheel, instead of convenient browser bars....at the least, it functions more smoothly than Season 2's did in some parts (The Appendix stopped working when Season 3 premiered and continued that way until this week). Well, the navigation is a little weird (obviously meant for iPhone scrolling) but not the worst in the world once you get a feel for it.

Let me be clear: they retroactively revised the entire thing, Seasons 1, 2, and 3.

I remember when the updated Viewer's Guide for Season 3 was released; it was the same day that Season 3 premiered, and it was a little buggy for a few days while they refined it. I'm hoping the problems I have with it now will thus be smoothed over in the next week.

They have gutted all of the secondary noble House heraldry. The Karstarks, the Reynes, etc. all of that is gone.

The map has been completely updated from scratch. It's pretty ugly now, actually. An added feature is that you can zoom in on it now for more information points which don't appear in the worldview.

Again, maybe this is buggyness due to the new rollout: there is no "Season 3" homepage, at the moment you have to access everything episode by episode.

A good point I guess is that all of those "Inside the Episode" HBO-Go videos are now offered FOR FREE in the Viewer's Guid, in a convenient menu for each episode. So they've got that going for them.

Unfortunately, they continue to use the map which is not the same as Lands: actually it's fairly close up until Vaes Dothrak and Qarth, but afterwards it shows the Jade Sea as extending north when it actually extends south in Lands of Ice and Fire. Also, certain locations such as Bayasabhad have simply disappeared.

It's also odd that they don't list Oldtown on a map at all. Norvos and Qohor are also gone....even from the Season 1 episode 4 page, when Jorah even specifically says "I'm going to Qohor but will catch up in a few days."

One of the bigger problems is that THEY DO NOT HAVE A MASTER LIST OF HOUSES. Maybe because I'm stuck in episode-by-episode mode now.

But I think their concern was that complete noob TV-only viewers who get very confused would lost track of all of the Houses if they were in a big list -- such as, why include House Arryn in a list all the time? Fair enough.

So what they do is only list the major Houses "featured" in a given episode. I.e. they don't put an icon linking to "House Tully" or "House Greyjoy". Now Tully and Greyjoy pages DO exist, they just streamlined the menu to only show those important in a given episode (which do rotate throughout the season). Again, there was some justification in this because they list the "featured" ones.

I'm probably being too harsh; it's because I'm locked-in under a specific episode. They haven't finished making the "Season 3 homepage" which probably lists all of them.

At any rate the above are fairly minor problems: though I wonder, if they were redrawing the map FROM SCRATCH, making an entirely new drawing of the map, why bother to continue to recopy the incorrect one from Seasons 2-3? It's not as if the TV show itself got contracted by anything east of Vaes Dothraki or Qarth!

So the navigation is a bit annoying with the slider, though you adapt to that, and in any case they haven't finished the main page (why wouldn't they have a family tree for the Karstarks?)--The Dragon Demands (talk) 23:29, April 1, 2014 (UTC)

Anyway it's a good thing we've had plenty of time to pick the viewer's guide clean for heraldry that doesn't appear anywhere else.

One big complaint is that....it doesn't easily distinguish between the rival sub-branches of "House Baratheon". You see the old Season 3 one had a homepage with each king on it, a nice big picture of each king along with it, and actually titled "The King on the Iron Throne" or "The King in the Narrow Sea".

The new one lists each of these by a House name, but with maybe limited space or something, EACH is called just "House Baratheon".

Going back to early Season 2, there are actually three icons that say simply "House Baratheon" - though they do have each of the three different sets of heraldry. Titles such as "The King in the Narrow Sea" are used only as subheaders.

Why not just call them "House Baratheon of King's Landing" and "House Baratheon of Dragonstone"?

Anyway there were a few errors here and there:

"Aegon Targaryen" is mispelled "Aegon Targaryena" with an accent (probably a typo)

The "House Tyrell" page's family tree uses the "House Baratheon of King's Landing" heraldry for Renly Baratheon! (probably just a simple mistake; they do use his correct heraldry on the Season 2 House Tyrell page: http://viewers-guide.hbo.com/game-of-thrones/season-2/episode-3/houses/11/house-tyrell

But now they give different quotes for each character's bio page which update each season (different quote for Jon Snow Season 1 and Jon Snow Season 2).

I do find it extremely offensive that someone chose for Loras's Season 3 bio pagequote, "A sword-swallower through and through" -- even if limited to season 3 quotes, wouldn't Sansa's "He's quite a fighter" from "Kissed by Fire" been much more appropriate? The quote they picked was crass (I lampshade that Olenna was just being very blunt in private).

The House Frey family tree was already a mess on the season 3 site, we'll wait until Season 4 updates (this revision to seasons 1-3 was mostly....cosmetic. Didn't change info really).

Only points of note from the Appendices are that it states the Alchemists' Guildhall is under Rhaenys's Hill, and have an entry for the Iron Bank of Braavos (they don't use possessive S with words that end in "S" like Stannis, but I've checked and the books do....for a long time I thought it was the other way around, but I'm slowly fixing this as I encounter it on the wiki).

Otherwise, they didn't update to include Martyn or Willem Lannister (again, neither did the older version). They *did* add in some better photos of Shireen Baratheon, who was barely featured with a fuzzy earlier photo in the original Season 3 Viewer's Guide.

We have one massive problem: The people who wrote the Viewer's Guide update now list her as "Sansa Lannister" in both the Lannister and Stark pages.

Yeah.

I say we should just plain ignore that - they also mis-use "Cersei Baratheon" instead of "Cersei Lannister" etc. I think we shouldn't assume the TV continuity is different on her name from this supplementary thing alone.....wait until on-screen dialogue says it or not in the Season 4 premiere.

I mean, the same Viewer's Guide under "Talisa Maegyr" spells it as "Volantine"...with an "i", instead of "Volantene".

So major changeups to the Viewer's Guide.

MAYBE this will improve when they have the actual Season 3 homepage done, which will list all.

And I do hope they update completely new info for Season 4. --The Dragon Demands (talk) 23:43, April 1, 2014 (UTC)


 * The House Stark family tree lists Sansa as Sansa Stark.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 00:01, April 2, 2014 (UTC)


 * Greatjon Umber is called Jon "Greatjon" Umber.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 00:05, April 2, 2014 (UTC)


 * Truth be told, the mistakes of the Viewer's Guide are of little concern to me. Remember how we corrected them once?--Gonzalo84 (talk) 00:22, April 2, 2014 (UTC)


 * Eh, the mistakes weren't major. I just like picking over them. The "Sansa Lannister" thing was the only real point of note so far. Wait, when did we correct them?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 00:27, April 2, 2014 (UTC)


 * There was a mention in the appendix that Rodrik Greyjoy died trying to assault King's Landing. Someone here, I don't remember who, told Werthead, he got in contact with HBO and HBO fixed the appendix.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 00:47, April 2, 2014 (UTC)


 * Walder Frey is also now Lord Paramount of the Trident, and Roose Bolton is Lord of Winterfell...-- 11:23, April 2, 2014 (UTC)


 * Perhaps we could have Werthead contact Cogman and clarify if he had any input in the Viewer's Guide.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 14:40, April 2, 2014 (UTC)


 * Well I've been asking Werthead to try to contact Cogman for months to take a look at the Cargo Cult, that hasn't worked out yet.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 16:18, April 2, 2014 (UTC)


 * In this instance I think it was probably intentional. With Littlefinger up to his elbows in the Vale's power play it makes sense to just give the Riverlands to the Freys, for simplicity's sake. It was hinted at in the "Histories and Lore" segment for them, with Catelyn wondering out loud if Walder's delay in reaching the Trident was a deliberate ploy to aid Rhaegar's forces in destroying the Tullys.-- 16:29, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

POW symbol
The prisoner symbol used in the battle infoboxes doesn't really show up well in the actual articles: Captured.png

Viewed within an article I don't think readers can tell it has a chain attached to it.

I think we should replace this with simply writing "POW", as readers are simply more familiar with this.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 05:13, April 3, 2014 (UTC)


 * Alright, go ahead.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 05:20, April 3, 2014 (UTC)

Institutes vs Organizations
We never really well-defined the difference between "Institutions" and "Organizations" so to make things easier to find I've just removed the Institutions category entirely.

A separate problem: "Organizations" has subcategories, like "Military organizations" and "Religious organizations".

How were we handling this? Does the "Kingsguard" article get the category tags for both "Military organizations" and "Organizations" added to it?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 13:19, April 3, 2014 (UTC)