User talk:Werthead/Archive 4

Thoros of Myr
http://eternal0aranel.tumblr.com/post/26434603378/thoros-of-myr-cast

I don't know what to make of it. It's not what he looks like in my head.--Mesmermann 23:28, July 3, 2012 (UTC)


 * Check this out: http://twitter.com/asimaahmad/status/220103162240053248 Curiouser and curiouser.--The Dragon Demands 23:44, July 3, 2012 (UTC)

Comic-Con
Greetings! You may already know, but GOT will be involved with Comic-Con this year. Wikia will have a physical presence at the 'Con once again, and we've created this badge:

to remind users of this, and provide them with a link to Comic-Con Wiki. There, we will be updating live for the duration of the event with images, info, and exclusives for those users who are unable to be there in person. Would you be willing to allow this badge on the main page here (hopefully at the top of the right column) until the conclusion of the event? Please hit me up on my TALK PAGE and let me know either way so I can add it, or make a note that you've declined affiliation. You're welcome to add it yourself using the code above, but please drop me a note as well so I can track which wikis are participating. Thank you for your time! :)
 * http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o297/SCOTIMUS76/siggy4.png (profile)•(talk)•(email) 00:55, July 6, 2012 (UTC)


 * I've added this as it might get us more traffic and doesn't harm the site in any way.--Opark 77 13:41, July 7, 2012 (UTC)

Religion articles
Please weigh in on this discussion, Ser: http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Great_Stallion#Content. I've been rounding out the religion articles. Should we have separate articles for "The Seven" and "Faith of the Lord of Light", or follow AWOIAF's convention of "Faith of the Seven" (used as an actual term in thee books), and "Lord of Light"? (because "Faith of the Lord of Light" isn't an actual phrase they use). I'm in favor of treating "Great Stallion", "Drowned God", etc. as the de facto main pages for "Dothraki religion" and "Ironborn religion", given the vast amount of overlap that would result (seriously, how much do we have to say about the specific legends and antics of the Drowned God? He fights with the Storm God. That isn't useful for a whole page....wikis are not paper, but we have to think of ease of navigation (I also made a new Religion navigation template including these names). Please weigh in.--The Dragon Demands 00:06, July 7, 2012 (UTC)

Map images
Great job on the map images, they are a big improvement to the location articles and very welcome. You're continued effort on them is very much appreciated.--Opark 77 20:59, July 8, 2012 (UTC)

Computer game info
Should we make any notes regarding the computer games at all? I thought they were unrelated to the TV series. http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Blackwater_Rush?diff=51819&oldid=39203 --The Dragon Demands 01:53, July 9, 2012 (UTC)

Casting
Any chance you can come on chat so we can co-ordinate writing articles for new cast members?--Opark 77 22:28, July 13, 2012 (UTC)

Apostrophes
Why do you keep using apostrophes as full quotation marks? This should only be done in the case of a quote within a quote. This wiki conforms to standard American English, and unlike British English, regular quotations must be made only with full quotation marks. I've been fixing these whenever I see them. --The Dragon Demands (talk) 00:14, July 19, 2012 (UTC)

Ironborn
My apologies, I didn't realize that lowercase "ironborn" was standard; I got it bacwards and thought it was capitalized. I will now enforce the proper lowercase convention.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 00:14, July 19, 2012 (UTC)

Stormlands map image
The Stormlands map image needs some adjustment, http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/File_talk:The_Stormlands.png --The Dragon Demands (talk) 17:25, July 29, 2012 (UTC)

Images
I'm still finding problematic images from you, including the latest two from today. Please could you take a look at our image policy. For each image that we use we need to ensure that we have the following information on the image page, all of which should be added by the uploader at the point of upload:
 * 1) The source (naming the video clip or episode for screenshots and providing a URL for images from other websites)
 * 2) A description (state what the image shows)
 * 3) A licensing tag ( for screenshots)
 * 4) Appropriate categories (e.g. Category: Image (Valar Morghulis) and Category: Image (Character) for screenshots of characters from "Valar Morghulis", to add categories type )

Please add this information yourself to images that you upload. If you fail to do so I will let you know and nominate the image in question for deletion. I will then review it 1 week later and will be happy if you have added the required information so we can keep it, otherwise I will have to delete it. If you need assistance adding the required information just let me know and I will do my best to help.

I highly recommend working from a template when uploading images. Personally I always copy and paste this for screenshots:

==Summary==

This image is a screencap from "EPISODE." The image is copyrighted by HBO. This image is used with the permission of HBO but on the understanding that it can be removed at any time. The image shows DESCRIPTION.

==Licensing==

Then I only need to fill in the name of the episode and a brief description. For images from other websites I use this:

==Summary==

This is a promotion image of DESCRIPTION from [URL WEBSITE].

==Licensing==

Then I only need to fill in a description, the source and choose a category e.g. Category:Image (Actor).

I've just been through the last months worth of uploaded images. You are still not adding a description or a source to the majority of your uploads. I have tagged the ones I cannot fix on my own for deletion, please can you sort them out. The latest two today don't have licensing tags either.

Please can you say where you get an image from - we can't claim we are making fair use of an image unless we establish that we know who the copyright holder is. Please can you give a URL if they come from another website.

Please can you state what your images show - this allows someone who is not familiar with the content to read the description and work out who or what is in the image, this is especially useful to editors when they are working with galleries and writing captions for images that they did not upload.

I've been asking you to follow the image policy for several months now, I am starting to feel really discouraged by seemingly being ignored. I have archived your talk page in case you have been missing my messages because they are not at the bottom of your talk page.--Opark 77 (talk) 15:51, July 23, 2012 (UTC)

As I said, I was concerned that you have not been reading my messages and that is born out by your suggestion that I last contacted you about this in May.
 * Here are my edits on June 14.
 * Here are my edits from last night.

I am upset that you think I am not showing good form. I think it is reasonable to offer to work with uploaders to add the required information themselves. I have found that I am spending upwards of 8 hours of editing time every month working on our images. I initially tried to do everything myself. I found that it was such a drain on my time resources that I was not contributing what I wanted to the wiki, and was not enjoying the time I volunteered here. With the aim of spending less time working on the site's images I came up with the idea that I would do it for an editor the first time they got it wrong and then show them what I had done so they could replicate that next time. I would then expect them to be able to follow the policy but would be open to helping them if they did not understand what to do.

Where I know that I have made an editor aware of the policy, they have not responded to my message and they are continuing to break the policy then I threaten deletion of their images. Yes I am able to correct some of these images but I do not think it is right for this wiki to rely solely on my time to get the images in the state we want them. I am happy to be the lead editor in curating our images. I am happy to spend more time on it than anyone else does. However, I do want the rest of the community here to try to work with me. I have tried a softly softly approach and have been ignored. I am now trying to be more assertive about images to protect my limited time resources. I can do everything here, but I don't have time to. It is not fair of you to place expectations on me to handle all of our image issues when I am a volunteer just like anyone.

I have been open and polite in my messages. I have invited people to come back to me for help if they need it. I am saying this is wrong and you got it wrong so the onus is on you to fix it. I am happy to help you to fix it. If you are not willing to put the effort into getting it right then I am afraid we can not use it. I don't think that is bad form. I think it is a fair and reasonable way of ensuring a decent standard of image uploading from our contributors while leaving me with enough time to contribute to other areas of the wiki. Have you got a better way of handling this?--Opark 77 (talk) 17:15, July 23, 2012 (UTC)

You can check the history of your talk page to see who edited it and when. That way you don't need to re-read anything and can see exactly what was added. I didn't realise that you weren't aware of this functionality. I regret that my messages failed to reach you. I avoided adding them to the foot of the page because repeating the same header more than once in an article breaks the section linking. In future I will try to be inventive with my topic names so that things go to the foot of your talk page.

That aside I would still appreciate a response about how you would like to handle image policy violations in future. Have you got an alternate approach? Do you still think I was showing bad form?--Opark 77 (talk) 21:30, July 23, 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for your kind words about my contributions.

I don't think it is appropriate or fair to call the Image Policy at present Draconian. It is not prescribing death for any who violate it, it merely asks the uploader to provide four simple pieces of information about the image they are adding. My approach to enforcing the policy is to point out where people have failed to meet these simple requirements, offer help and a one week window to correct them, and then to delete the image if it is still not up to our standard.

I also disagree with your characterisation of requiring four bits of information as constituting a "lengthy form". If you use the cut and paste templates that I have taken the time to provide then it is even less information, because the licensing tag is already in place for you.

Parts of the image policy originated with you. It was you who wrote that you wanted to avoid uploading duplicate images to the wiki. In order to weed out duplicate images it is necessary to appropriately categorize and name the images we have so that they can easily be compared to one another. I have spent hours going through our images to weed out duplicates and to ensure that they are correctly categorized because you asked that we avoid duplicates. Having reached a high standard of image use because of the efforts of myself and others, I think it behooves us as a wiki to have an image policy that maintains that standard, rather than allowing poor (or no) categorization and random image names to eradicate the hard work that has been done.

I am taking sole responsibility for policing the simple image policy that I modified. However, I don't believe that policing the image policy translates into me being left to do all the work on every image that fails to meet the requirements of the policy. I think it should be enough that I rigorously check every image that is uploaded and then enter a dialogue with the uploader where they have failed to meet the requirements of the policy, explaining where they have failed and what they need to do to correct it. If the uploader is not willing to spend further time getting their images up to the standard we require then I think it is reasonable for me to also spend no further time on that image, and to remove it for failing to meet our simple, four piece of information minimum. Nothing deleted from a wiki is ever truly gone, we have a deletion log and anyone with admin rights can restore deleted images where the uploader comes back with good reason to do so.

I am not saying that I don't have time to police the policy. I am saying that I am at the limit of the time I have and therefore will not spend time policing the policy and then doing all the work to correct any violations of the policy. I am happy to go on patrolling new images and discussing images that fail to meet our requirements with the uploader. I object to being told that doing so is bad form. I think I am being reasonable and fair in my approach. Once again I am asking if you have an alternative approach that you would like me to follow?

If you disagree with the image policy then by all means we should start a wider discussion about it. I think the onus is on you to do that because you are the one objecting to it.--Opark 77 (talk) 10:44, July 29, 2012 (UTC)

Absence
I am sorry I've been barely active the past week or two, and particularly this weekend. I have been preparing for my sister's wedding (which I have mentioned before). It will last the rest of today, Sunday, and now I must go out the door to leave for the wedding ceremony itself.

If I'm not back, avenge my death.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:00, August 5, 2012 (UTC)

Faith of the Seven merge
I merged the content from "the Seven" into "Faith of the Seven"; how does it look? Should we delete "The Seven"? Or are all of the extra images of the Seven (which I added in a Gallery) too clunky, thus warranting a separate page? I do hope later seasons show us more artwork of the Seven from the insides of septs and such. But for now, I don't know. At any rate, this is what it would look like if all the content from "the Seven" were indeed merged. I leave the decision to you, ser.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 19:47, August 10, 2012 (UTC)

Good Game Review
Hi Werthead--

I'm the new gaming guy inside Wikia, and I noticed your review of the Game of Thrones RPG. I loved it - very well written with some good arguments made. This is a bit outside of the Game of Thrones wiki, but I'm wondering if you're interested in doing more long-form pieces for Wikia in the games category.

What are those pieces, you ask? Um, I have no idea as of yet. But there are a bunch of big games coming out over the next few months, and I'm sure we could figure something out.

Ping me if you're interested and, regardless, I loved the GOT RPG review. Hope all is well!

George lizzunchbox

All roads lead to King's Landing
Your input would be greatly valued, Ser: Particularly, I'm confused about where exactly the Battle of the Trident occurred, the crossings of the River Road or of the Kingsroad, and which of those two crossings is thus the "Ruby Ford". Moreover, why would the rebel army, after coming from the Battle of the Bells in the Riverlands, be coming from the north side of the Trident to the ford? My functional guess is that they were already in the process of retreating north to join with their Stark and Arryn allies after Ashford...but those allies already met them at Stony Sept. Maybe they pulled back north of the Trident to consolidate? --The Dragon Demands (talk) 14:17, September 21, 2012 (UTC)


 * I see. Well, I think that we can logically conclude that the Kingsroad crossing is the Ruby Ford, on account of the fact that when the royal/Stark party is heading from Winterfell to King's Landing via the King's Road, Arya leaves within walking distance to check out the "Ruby Ford" for all the rubies. In and of itself that seems to fit. The bigger question is why the rebel army would be on the north side of the river after mostly joining up at the Battle of the Bells; but its already been strongly implied that Robert wanted to retreat north to consolidate his strength. I mean the war lasted over a year between Gulltown and when the Siege of Storms End was lifted; maybe months were spent as each side consolidated after the Bells, with Rhaegar raising the Crownlands army joined by the Dornish, while the rebels consolidated north of the Trident. Though there are some questions about the location of the Battle of the Green Fork. Well, I'm not going to worry about the battle things too much as we have Lands of Ice and Fire coming up eventually. This should at least answer the roads questions. --The Dragon Demands (talk) 00:30, September 25, 2012 (UTC)

Concept art
I'm not sure how or if we can use screenshots of this concept art ( of the White Walkers, or link to it, or perhaps make an article about the concept artist, I'm not sure.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 23:58, October 9, 2012 (UTC)

Yi Ti
Please remind me; in which episode is Yi Ti mentioned?


 * Yi Ti is mentiond in the companion book Inside HBO's Game of Thrones, which is a canon resource for the Wiki to use since it was written by producer-writer Bryan Cogman.--Werthead (talk) 17:26, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

Hello. I'm a brazilian journalist writing a piece about the speculations surrounding G.R.R.M'S The Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring. Could I send you a couple of questions on the subject? Thanks a lot!

My email is jfranciscobotelho@yahoo.com.br.

José Francisco Botelho – Superinteressante Magazine.

Steelshanks
​Bran has never been referred to as "Brandon", yet he's listed as such. Under that precedent I think the article should return to its previous name.Gonzalo84 (talk) 06:25, December 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * I think that might be excessive in Bran's case, given how prevalent "Brandon" is in established Stark names like "Bran/Brandon the Builder" etc.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 19:47, December 27, 2012 (UTC)

Grand Maester
Regarding Grand Maester; is the Grand Maester the head of the order of Maesters, much as the High Septon is head of the Faith of the Seven? Or is the ruling body the assembled Conclave of Archmaesters? Was there a Grand Maester before the Targaryen Conquest, or was it specifically created for the Red Keep and king on the Iron Throne? While we're on the subject, am I correct in assuming that literally no indication has been given in the books about the origins and development of the maesters? My guess is that this has something to do with the subplot about how the maesters are trying to make a world without magic, based on science and reason; that their origins have some plot relevance. Suffice to say, my assumption was that they are a creation of the Andals, brought over in the Andal Invasion, but even this I'm not sure on. I'm going to fix up the Maesters page but I really need you to double-check it.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 15:49, January 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * Agreed; indeed, I kind of assumed (well, hoped) that we will be finding out more about the Maesters in World of Ice and Fire; and given that it will give us the definitive answers in a year or so, I'm content with just tabling the issue. Anyway, I did a major revamp of the Maesters page, please double-check (I don't mean to shove work onto others, I mean word of admins is final, so if my attempts don't match standards I hope someone else can fix them up; but I like to think I get the ball rolling).--The Dragon Demands (talk) 17:57, January 20, 2013 (UTC)

Formal vote for banning needs your attention
I've started a formal vote to ban Ch'Vyalthan:. I have assembled a long list of evidence, but please read through all of it. I started the vote last Tuesday, so it should be due next Tuesday, but he's really not getting the message and is binge-editing even more. I think we at least need the other (active) admins to weigh in on the matter. --The Dragon Demands (talk) 19:09, January 25, 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for your attention, but two questions about your response:


 * Late in the day, but I agree. I haven't been as active day-to-day as in the past recently, as other people have been doing a great job getting on with things. If I'd know about this, I'd have contributed sooner. What is more concerning is this pattern of behaviour recurring on the ASoIaF Wikia, which is going to have to be addressed there as well.

1 - Does this mean you favor a permanent ban, not just a one month ban? (see subheading "blocking" on the ban vote page, where I just raised this question).

2 - What pattern of behavior over on the ASOIAF wikia? I'm aware that he's been posting there but didn't know how horrendous it was. We started noticing that, possibly due to Wiki-Addiction in the past 3-4 weeks when (due to Christmas break) more of us had time to respond to Ch'Vyalthan's antics, when we began to block, revise, or revert his crazy editing, he'd apparently burn off his excess energy, his excess compulsion to edit, by spending time over on the ASOIAF Wikia...even as Gonzalo84 was directly ordering him to immediately clean up editing messes he'd created. I'm not aware of specifics, however, I was going to suggest that you use your admin powers over on ASOIAF wikia to ban him from there as well, because A - from what I saw, his work wasn't that great there, and B - to prevent him from repositioning himself there, possibly leading to an ugly confrontation down the road. He needs to be out, away from anything online Game of Thrones wiki related.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 20:37, January 26, 2013 (UTC)


 * I have gone over to ASoIaF wikia and noticed that, indeed, Ch'vyalthan's work there is just as bad as his activity here.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 06:57, January 28, 2013 (UTC)


 * This matter still needs attention.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 00:41, February 2, 2013 (UTC)

Has a decision been reached on this permanent banning? (Forum:Formal request to permanently ban Ch'vyalthan).--The Dragon Demands (talk) 23:18, February 2, 2013 (UTC)

Wikia Alliances
Hello Werthead!

First off, thanks for participating in the Wikia Wide Fantasy Fellowship! We're bringing that web ring to a close, as you may have noticed. However, the event was such a success that we want to launch another opportunity to tie wiki communities closer together and promote all your wonderful content!

There are actually three alliances to choose from: Fantasy, Sci-Fi, and Heroes! All are broadly defined, so your wiki may fit. Check out the Alliance Page for more details and fill out the Choose Your Alliance Page to sign up!

Best, Jorge (profile)•(talk) 00:17, January 30, 2013 (UTC)

Summer Islands and Sothoryos
I added the Summer Islands to the Sothoryos template and added the Sothoryos navbox to the Summer Islands; technically they're sort of like the Azores or Canary Islands, far out into the sea and not quite part of any continent. However, I think we should loosely consider them as part of Sothoryos on the wiki because: 1 - culturally/ethnically, the inhabitants of both the Summer Islands and Sothoryos are notably dark-skinned, and thus not really like Westeros or Essos, 2 - Having received my copy of The Lands of Ice and Fire, we can confirm that the northernmost of the Summer Islands is sort of equidistant from Westeros and Essos, while the southern end is also equidistant from Sothoryos. It's roughly equidistant from all three continents. However, if we associate it with no continent at all, it will be more difficult for TV-first readers to find (a book-first fan might encounter "Summer Islands" in text and look it up; but a TV-first fan going through this wiki has to stumble across it, if we're lucky). Thus it makes more sense to associate the Summer Islands with one of the three continents instead of leaving them isolated, and Sothoryos makes the most sense out of the three. What do you think, ser?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 13:42, February 1, 2013 (UTC)


 * What do we do about Ibben or Great Moraq... I think those should be considered "indenpendent" islands.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 15:39, February 1, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, much as Iceland is lumped in with Europe, I'd put Ibben with Essos: seeing as the Ibbenese also have colonies along the north shore of Essos. Real-life "continents" are often based on tectonic plates and fault lines, though in the age of discovery or even ancient times this was often arbitrary. Where did Aristotle think "Africa" ended and "Asia" began? Sothoryos and Ibben aside...I have no frelling idea how to handle Great Moraq. Is it considerd part of Essos, Sothoryos, or possibly neither? Other than that the Stone Cow of Faros is there (which would imply it is urbanized and not uninhabited like the Isle of Cedars), we have no real information on the place. This is of course presuming that Season 3's Viewer's Guide map will be updated to reflect The Lands of Ice and Fire. I checked internet archive, and the new viewer's guide last season only went up within a week's time of the premiere. And again, my bigger concern is for TV-first fans who might not know what they're looking for, so we should put these things into existing templates instead of isolating them, for ease of access.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 16:51, February 1, 2013 (UTC)


 * Okay then. So the decision is: the Summer Islands are independent of any continent, Great Moraq isn't in the TV series yet so we shouldn't waste time on it, and Ibben should probably be part of Essos.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 14:09, February 2, 2013 (UTC)

Season 2 deleted scenes
The Season 2 box set apparently includes 4 deleted scenes; Varys and Littlefinger after Blackwater, Loras and Margaery as Loras mourns Renly's death, Sandor asking "little bird" Sansa to sing, and Doreah killing Irri. How should we handle these deleted scenes? We've already made note of the Doreah scene, and I think that a it stands we consider it "non-canonical" (as it wasn't in the books, isn't in a finished episode, and wildly out of character). The SanSan scene didn't really add much that was "new" though it incorporated a bit more of that book subplot (more of a nod; they've turned Sansa into just a victim, not planning escape, though I understand time constraints limited this); Varys and Littlefinger doesn't really add much either; I mean it's good acting but it's kind of a retread of earlier stuff (maybe they could move it to the Season 3 premiere?). But out of all four, the one with the Tyrells is a real shame that it wasn't in a finished episode: we actually see Margaery and Loras interacting as siblings, which we barely saw before in Season 2, plus actually following through on Loras mourning Renly (I don't think Margaery was being condescending, just that as in the finished episode when Littlefinger comes in, she isn't trying to belittle Loras' pain, just pointing out that they're in danger and must think quickly to plan their next move). Enjoyable to show (if my hopeful interpretation is true) that the Tyrells have none of the internal rivalries in the Lannisters or Baratheons (or even the Starks). I enjoyed it most just because it was starting to show plot dynamics centering around groups of characters or other major Houses other than the Starks and Lannisters, i.e. when we get scenes just about the Greyjoys; much as the books start out focusing on the Starks and Lannisters, but gradually widens to become more complex and show other Houses with their own agendas and even their own narrative POV (i.e. the Martells have no particular stake in the Starks). So the point is I feel bad that this Tyrell scene was simply deleted; is there any way we can put it in an article? It doesn't violate continuity, I think it was just cut for time; Memory Alpha often puts info from deleted scene into the core text of a character article, but in a separate italicized out-of-universe paragraph explaining "this was from a deleted scene".--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:28, February 22, 2013 (UTC)


 * I agree these should be added, along with the proper deleted scene tag.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 18:55, February 22, 2013 (UTC)

TidyNetwork in-text advertisements
I'm noticing a lot of in-text linked advertisements for something called TidyNetwork - is this some sort of new ad program by Wikia, or a virus in my computer? If so, how should I address this? Google search is proving unreliable.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 22:59, February 23, 2013 (UTC)


 * No, wait, these "TidyNetwork" in-text ad links are even appearing on messageboards, it appears to be my browser/computer. I'm not sure of how to remove this; do you know of any trusted removal tools?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 15:04, February 24, 2013 (UTC)

Vandals Is Coming
With Season 3 just weeks away, the amount of vandals will surely increase. Are we going to take special measures, or we'll just cleanup after each vandalism or spamming like last year?. Keep in mind that last year we suffered a massive vandal attack that took several hours to repair. At the very least I think we should elevate The Dragon Demands to admin so he can help us weed out and cleanup these interventions.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 21:19, February 25, 2013 (UTC)

New Layout
Also, with the new dragon-shadow poster already published I think we should adapt the wiki layout.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 21:19, February 25, 2013 (UTC)

Affiliates
Hello! With Game of Thrones coming back so soon, how would you feel about starting up an Affiliates program on this wiki to get more traffic and visitors? It is a great site and we could showcase it a bit more by getting word out to other wikis and external websites so people can see all the hard work you and other admins have put into it! Affiliating with other sites can bring more traffic from external websites which would benefit the wiki in the long run.

For examples on how the affiliate program works, check out the Hunger Games Wiki and Shadowhunters Wiki! It would be set up in exactly the same format with a link on the navigation bar for people to see. Please let me know if you are interested in this and I will start reaching out to other sites!

Grace 00:48, February 26, 2013 (UTC)

wait. how did you send me a message

are you on, you just sent me a message, or was it a bot. I put the huge spoilet on robs page

Layout
I am currently working with the Wikia Staff to spruce up the Wiki to Season 3 of GoT. 18:09, February 26, 2013 (UTC)

Pre-emptive Locking
I've already had to ban someone today for Red Wedding vandalism. While we have some vandalism now and again for things like "What Dany does in Season 3", possibly even "how Jaime gets injured in Season 3" (we'll have to keep an eye on that one in particular)...nothing, oh but nothing, can match the drive with which vandals will come out of the woodwork to post spoilers related to the Red Wedding. It's the single most shocking event in the series (arguably more than Ned dying, given how sudden it was, and in the sheer scale of it) But this isn't just a future possibility; we've already seen, time and again, since Season 1 that the vandals feel utterly compelled to come onto this wiki to spoil this...now it's almost upon us.

To this end, I propose that we lock the following articles from Anonymous editing immediately:


 * Robb Stark
 * Catelyn Stark
 * Grey Wind
 * Direwolves
 * Walder Frey
 * Roose Bolton
 * The Twins

And if vandals create new accounts simply for the sake of adding such things we may have to upgrade the lock, but we'll wait until it comes to that.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:53, February 26, 2013 (UTC)


 * I have gone ahead and locked the mentioned articles, and House Frey as well. New and unregistered users won't be able to edit them until we see fit. --Gonzalo84 (talk) 19:05, February 26, 2013 (UTC)

Color scheme
I had prepared a new color scheme for the wiki in preparation for season 3, since this black and orange was set up for Season 2. Once the new layout is available I'll set it up.Gonzalo84 (talk) 17:03, February 27, 2013 (UTC)


 * What do you think of the new color scheme?--Gonzalo84 (talk) 20:28, February 27, 2013 (UTC)

Wikia front page House game?
Given that Ch'Vyalthan shut is down for three months (over Christmas Break no less, when we have the most possible free time to work), the Season 3 premiere is only 26 days away, yet we still need to heavily revise and edit Season 1 and to an extent Season 2. We didn't "finish" many of these things, the few of us who stayed in the off-season were overburdened with work.

This is not a forum, it is a wiki. A dedicated, serious attempt to make a mature, professional encyclopedic guide to Game of Thrones. It is not an imageboard.

As I said, we are currently facing our "nightmare scenario" of barely 26 days to go, yet a massive backlog of work. Under 10 regulars are producing this "actual work" while we keep getting flybys on blogs which produce nothing of substance....and serve to distract from actual contributions to the wiki itself.

Who is User:Porterfield, who has now inserted some sort of Wikia House contest onto our front page? We didn't ask for this, it's a distraction, and it shoved Mance Rayder off the front page.

He shouldn't be able to do this without consulting us. Did he consult you before doing this? Making it a blog post would be one thing, I don't support having it on our front page. --The Dragon Demands (talk) 19:41, March 5, 2013 (UTC)

Starter Guide Video
Hey there, I created a video that's a recap of seasons 1 and 2 using stills (creative commons) and GOT acoustic cover music. I have a draft of it and I'd love to show you and get your feedback/input as we're interested in putting it up on this wiki. I could skype it to you, my skype is peter.kalmbach1

Lemme know!

Peter 23:36, March 6, 2013 (UTC)


 * HBO makes quite useful season recap and refresher videos.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 17:13, March 7, 2013 (UTC)

Small world
Hi Werthead. I couldn't help but notice that you live in Colchester. I'm originally from Brightlingsea myself. It's a small world:) 17:55, March 9, 2013 (UTC)

Cersei and Robert's child
I was going over "The Kingsroad" again: I remembered that a change from the books was that Cersei said she actually had a black-haired boy by Robert, during the first year of her marriage when she honestly thought she might be able to make it work out. I think this was done to try to humanize Cersei into more of a three dimensional character (admittedly, this might just be because it is more difficult in the change from book to screen to convey character nuance; i.e. removing Catelyn's "it should have been you" line to Jon Snow, which even GRRM said was wildly out of character to underscore her grief - this wouldn't come across well in a TV episode, in which everything gets condensed) -- thus, "Cersei outright had an abortion when she got pregnant by Robert" from the books, might be taken as too strong. I'm not too upset, I understand that adaptation condensation is problematic for conveying shades of character nuance. Anyway, I always remembered this as a "stillborn" child, but rewatching the episode, Cersei makes it clear that he actually lived for some amount of time; he was alive, but died of a fever. This is a fairly big change for the TV continuity: we normally wouldn't put stillbirths in family trees, or have say, wiki-pages about them, but wouldn't a new royal child warrant an entry and place in the family tree? Problem is we don't have a name to use. Did it even survive to be named on its "nameday"...mere hours later? What fever works that fast? How should we approach this? Way back when "The Kingsroad" aired the wiki had bigger things to set up, and for a long time I thought it was a stillbirth, but now that it's "an infant that died of a fever in Cersei's first year of marriage", I'm not sure if we should make something for that.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 19:54, March 19, 2013 (UTC)

Hello from Wikia!
We noticed all the great work you've been doing on the Game of Thrones wiki and I was wondering you'd be interested in a brief Skype chat this week. We are working on a couple of programs that I think might be of interest to you and I'd love your thoughts. Please let me know if you're interested and we can find a time. Thanks!

Cshannon (talk) 20:10, March 19, 2013 (UTC)

Irri actress' reason for leaving the show
Check out the Irri page; there was always some confusion about exactly why the actress had to leave; I thought it was something to do with her EU visa, but details were murky. This seems important enough, and sensitive enough, of a topic that I think it needs your executive attention.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 00:17, March 24, 2013 (UTC)

Macumba
In "Lord Snow" Robb remarks that Old Nan once told him that the sky is blue because "the whole world is inside the eye of a giant named Macumba". Is this worth even having an article for? It's not in the books.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 22:57, March 24, 2013 (UTC)

Starter Guide Video
Hi again, here's a link to the video I made - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7aJyqsxbv0 Please check it out, I'd love to put it up in a blog post on the wiki!

Peter 19:34, March 25, 2013 (UTC)

Season 2 quiz
Season 2 quiz coming, just a heads-up...
 * http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/xraydeltaone/images/b/b2/Siggy4.png @ (profile)•(talk)•(email) 21:49, March 25, 2013 (UTC)

CestWhat
I realize this will take much time, but please read the discussions on the Talk page of User:CestWhat, start to finish. There are times when you're supposed to realize that it's time to walk away, and pass the problem on for a superior's deliberation instead of overreacting. This is one of those times. I have other work to get onto for Season 3 so I'm going to leave that alone and follow whatever decision you have.

Basic problem is CestWhat being adamant about separating book from TV continuity, even in the face of counter-intuitive situations (i.e. remember months ago when there was that big debate over if Rodrik Greyjoy died at Seagard or King's Landing, based on a stray comment in the Viewer's Guide?). Apparently the in-episode guide will generically say that Robb is in "the Riverlands" in Season 2, even when they reference locations from the Westerlands in on-screen dialogue....CestWhat adamantly waves this aside as that Robb's camp was "a day's ride" from the Crag...this his army rode to the Crag from Riverrun in a day, then rode back. Theon, in Winterfell...the other smegging side of the continent...tells Yara that "Robb went to the Riverlands"...this is just him speaking loosely (Robb went to Riverrun at first). Later dialogue where the Lannister war council says he's "north of Ashemark"? CestWhat waves this away as bad intelligence.

He frequently resorts to saying that he "heard in an interview" that the TV show condensed it so Robb is in the Riverlands, not the Westerlands. Possible, but he has no idea where that supposed interview is, has put no effort into finding it (he moved on to wasting my time with the soundtrack, see below), and I think he's just selectively remembering what he wants.

In and of itself this would just be picking over guide material --- meanwhile, I think that the Irri page needed to stress that "just because Doreah kills Irri in a deleted scene doesn't necessarily mean she killed her off-screen officially, the scene was deleted"....again, CestWhat feels this is me pushing a books-first agenda, when it's really just common sense; people wouldn't jump to the conclusion that Doreah personally killed Irri, if they hadn't seen it in a deleted scene. I just left a message urging caution.

Meanwhile, as we're all racing around to get ready for Season 3, he found a relic article on "Main Title" and insisted we waste time doing a write-up for it. I told him that between "Title credits" and "Season 1 Soundtrack" is where such material should go, why make a third page? And, that if there was music info, it should start out on "Season 1 Soundtrack" and only be branched out later. Then he started insisting he knew musical themes and melody schemes about it ("it's a waltz, that means it's about a cyclical story!") which is heavily original research, not links to statements by the composer about leitmotifs.

Moving along, that "Guide to Characters Significantly Changed Between Books and TV series" I've been tinkering with isn't perfect, but on the talk page we got into a protracted argument about it....until he ultimately stated that he wasn't even worried about Talisa-controversy....but that the very idea of pointing out "Asha Greyjoy was renamed to Yara to avoid similarity to Osha, even though ironically Asha Greyjoy is a much more important character" etc. The very idea of pointing out "differences between books and series" seems controversial to him.

That, and in the past couple of days he's just generically been challenging various decisions by admins; the concept that "no means no" with utter finality hasn't occurred to him. Reverting edits Admins reverted back, that kind of thing.

Finally, he even linked to a youtube clip of a scene between Robert and Cersei, on a talk page...then adamantly insisted that he had linked to "an article" (like Vulture or something), not posting a direct link.

He's also been making frequent spelling mistakes; when I've called him on this, he bluntly said that he noticed "the Admins are the kind of people who are on top of that sort of thing"....expecting us to waste time acting as his cleanup crew.

In short, CestWhat has proven to be a handful. I personally want to use the youtube clip incident (combined with general misbehavior and arguing with admins) as a shallow and cynical excuse to throw him off the wiki. But as such unilateral action may prove controversial, I'm passing the judgement on to you rather than act hastily. Personally, this guy questioning many of our basic decisions isn't something I need during the flurry of work surrounding the Season 3 premiere. It's all there on his talk page.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 23:44, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

Knights and Nobility
Are knights considered nobility under the law? That is, even a "landed knight" is not a "lord" and thus does not have the power of justice. Even so, does even a hedge knight, or knighted landless sellsword, technically possess the benefits of a noble-born under the law? (i.e. the right to demand trial by combat, which apparently the smallfolk do not have). --The Dragon Demands (talk) 16:52, March 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * I believe they actually do have a right to invoke it, but, having little skill at arms or noone to champion them they do not actually do.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 17:24, March 28, 2013 (UTC)

Inactive Admins
Good evening Werthead. The Dragon Demands and I were discussing the procedure/protocol to take on Admins who have been inactive for quite some time. We figured we should bring it to you. For example, User:LordofOnions is about 2 years inactive and User:KarinS is a year this month. What is the time limit for an Admin who doesn't contribute, to lose their Admin rights? We were curious. Hope you enjoyed the premiere!! 03:09, April 2, 2013 (UTC)


 * This remains a concern.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 03:12, April 12, 2013 (UTC)

"Talisa Stark"
What are we supposed to do about characters who marry during the course of the series? We haven't (and shouldn't) used "Cersei Baratheon" because no one ever calls her that (though the article mentions this at the start). Margaery married Renly but it's also not used, so I'd stick with "Margaery Tyrell" (particularly for the sake of TV-first fans who have trouble keeping House allegiances straight). However, the HBO Viewer's Guide now calls her "Talisa Stark", and to be blunt, the idea that she would be associated with the Maegyr triarchs of Volantis was absurd, no one knows who the heck the Maegyrs are, and on the principle of "helping noobs keep the house allegiances straight", should we change it to Talisa Stark?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 14:20, April 2, 2013 (UTC)

Kingsguards
Without a "Rainbow Guard" in th TV series, I've just been using a "Renly's Kingsguard" subsection on the "Kingsguard" page. I also thought it increased visibility. But last episode established that Daenerys has a "Queensgard". So should we split those off, to make a separate "Queensguard" page? What would we title the page for Renly? Just "Renly's Kingsguard?" (I hope that a subsequent episode will have Brienne retroactively tell Jaime that she was a member of his "Rainbow Guard", but I doubt it will happen). Further questions: Why doesn't Stannis have a Kingsguard? It's odd that no one even comments on it; Robb and Balon don't because their regions don't have knights (and they're only seceding, not actively claiming the throne). This late into the books, no one comments on it. I thought it might be because the Lord of Light religion isn't as into that, but knights still serve Stannis; or is it just because in total contrast to Renly, he doesn't fixate on pomp and ceremony?

Second question: is "Queensgard" a term that Daenerys made up, or is that what the Kingsguard would formally be known as under a female monarch? There simply hasn't been a Ruling Queen before; my hope is that the upcoming novella by GRRM will reveal if Rhaenyra Targaryen had her own "Queensgard".--The Dragon Demands (talk) 20:39, April 7, 2013 (UTC)

Princes in the Tower
I don't know how much the "public consciousness" in England is actively aware of the Princes in the Tower. Most American viewers probably wouldn't recognize this - except anyone educated enough to have seen a production of Richard III. The "man on the street" wouldn't get this. Given that the series is loosely inspired by the War of the Roses, I have to ask: would people in England think that Williem Lannister and Tion Frey are partially influenced by the Princes in the Tower? I see an echo of it there.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 22:53, April 15, 2013 (UTC)

Io9 and the Pilot episode script
A report on Io9.com says that a leaked copy of the script for the pilot episode is circulating around the internet: http://io9.com/how-different-was-the-unaired-pilot-of-game-of-thrones-473593778

Of course, even io9 stresses that even if it is real, it might only be one snapshot-view of the writing process, i.e. not even the final shooting script used for the pilot episode, only one out of a series of numerous heavy revisions.

Moreover, the io9.com article linked to our own article on the pilot episode.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 22:07, April 16, 2013 (UTC)

Making Game of Thrones
Good production info on the latest Making Game of Thrones blog update:. It turns out the production team made only one ship prop (I think), so the Balerion (ship) that Daenerys appears on in episode 1 of Season 3 is a re-use of that prop, and they filmed that part at its mooring in Northern Ireland - thus the only scene in Season 3 that Dany filmed in Northern Ireland and not Morocco (at first I thought this was her first Northern Ireland scene, but I quickly remembered that the Dothraki Sea scenes were filmed in Northern Ireland as well, only a few shots were in Malta). My question is, they said it was "on fire" during Blackwater - is it a re-use of Black Betha, or Fury? (Fury wasn't "on fire" though; another of the Fury-class dromonds? Were the other ships on fire in that scene a re-use of the Black Betha or Fury prop-ships? Or was there only one prop ship which pulled double-duty for Black Betha and Fury, with minor set redressing?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 13:48, April 18, 2013 (UTC)

Skinner
Wait, how do we know that "Skinner" actually is the book character "Skinner"? Apparently he's just credited as "Master Torturer", and now he's dead, unlike Skinner in the books, so maybe someone else is going to be "Skinner"?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 04:11, April 24, 2013 (UTC)


 * I made that assumption based on the fact that Theon remembers Skinner flaying his finger and the Torturer putting the flaying knife right below his fingernail. Just move it and delete "Skinner"--Gonzalo84 (talk) 01:39, April 25, 2013 (UTC)

Confirmation on Jaehaerys II
Bryan Cogman answered some Q&A over on WinterIsComing.net, answered my question directly: http://winteriscoming.net/2013/04/ask-a-got-writer-bryan-cogman-on-the-writing-process-robb-and-talisa-and-renlys-peach

So yes, Jaehaerys II has been removed from the TV continuity (as you said, like Ultimate Marvel continuity). It's not as if I was particularly attached to Jaehaerys II...so much as this alters any potential prequel series about "Tales of Dunk and Egg", which will have to explain how a generally "good" character like Aegon V ended up having a son like the Mad King. Moreover, his answer was too concise; we still don't know how the Baratheons relate to the Targaryens, as if Jaehaerys II is omitted, I mean his whole generation omitted, then what of his sister who marred a Baratheon?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 01:11, April 25, 2013 (UTC)

Recommending Adminship
I would like to recommend that The Boy Who Cried Direwolf is made an Admin. He has gone above and beyond the normal/everyday editor and proven himself to be a great user on the GoT Wiki. He has also been a user of distinction. With all the spammers/trollers, we could use an Admin like him. Just thought I'd give it a try :) 18:21, April 23, 2013 (UTC)
 * I would also strongly support making the Bastard of Bolton an Administrator.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 04:10, April 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * GONZALO (draws sword): THE BOY WHO CRIED DIREWOLF IN THE NORTH!--Gonzalo84 (talk) 04:46, April 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm happy we'll have a House Bolton supporter to balance out (or replace) the proliferation of Stark supporters. Death to the dogs and cats of the Usurper.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 14:27, April 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * Go drink wildfire LOL.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 01:42, April 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * ....well played, ser.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 01:44, April 25, 2013 (UTC)


 * Done :) --Werthead (talk) 12:51, April 25, 2013 (UTC)


 * Woah, somehow I missed this cozy little huddle:) I'm really flattered, thank you all: Buffy for the recommendation, and Dragon, Gonzalo, and Werthead for the support. I'll do my best.--The Boy Who Cried Direwolf white.pngDirewolf sig.png 05:50, April 26, 2013 (UTC)

Featured article
We haven't been regularly updating our featured articles in a while. I realized that our front page still has Osha on it, which isn't really good as she doesn't do much in Season 3. My suggestion off the top of my head would be to change it to Free Folk.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 05:15, April 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * I was just about to change it- I was updating the entire page. I think it was Free Folk recently. What about "Giants"? Also, why is my little crown showing up in the feed every time my signature is used? Grrr 05:20, April 29, 2013 (UTC)

Selyse's three stillborn sons
I'm not sure how to handle the addition that Selyse named three of her stillborn sons. AWOIAF would usually just make a note of this on the parent's page. At the least, I think it's a mistake to put it in the family tree; they were stillborn, those normally aren't included in the family tree, the Baratheon family tree template is already HUGE and cluttered, and putting in not one but three slots for three separate stillborn sons wouldn't greatly benefit navigation because no one would have a great need to look those up.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 15:08, April 29, 2013 (UTC)


 * No, I wouldn't put them on the family tree. There's not much point. A note on Stannis and Selyse's pages should be enough.--Werthead (talk) 18:19, April 29, 2013 (UTC)


 * In AWoIaF, even stillborn offspring or infants that died very young are mentioned in family trees--Gonzalo84 (talk) 00:05, May 1, 2013 (UTC)


 * Well it's using up a lot of space on the alreay-cramped Baratheon family tree. Our family trees have photos in them so they're much larger than those on AWOIAF. That, and they need to be easy to use for casual TV-fans. I'd advocate removing these three stillborn sons entirely from the family tree. At least, instead of having three separate infoboxes, can the tree be shortened to a single box that says "three stillborn sons; see Selyse" - much as the Robert part of the tree has a composite box for "many bastards; see Robert"?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 02:50, May 1, 2013 (UTC)

Black Walder or Walder Rivers?
The official information was that Tim Plester would portray Black Walder, yet the viewers guide for "The Climb" states its Walder Rivers. Since you have the contacts could you please confirm?--Gonzalo84 (talk) 16:46, May 8, 2013 (UTC)

Pixie Le Knot
Yikes, the actual Pixie Le Knot joined the wiki and posted up some screencaps; she confirmed her identity in her twitter feed; http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:PixieLeKnot#The_real_Pixie_Le_Knot -- I'm not sure how we're supposed to handle official cast and crew dropping in on here; you're the Founder of the Wiki, so I figured you'd need to know.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 23:22, May 8, 2013 (UTC)

Theon
Book spoilers question:

Something which is starting to baffle me is...in the books...why did Ramsay Snow become so fixated on Theon Greyjoy, of all people? I understand that he enjoys sadistically torturing people - why not some random peasant? Why Theon? I mean, the simple logistics involved with devoting that much time and effort into torturing him - doesn't Ramsay do anything else? Or is he literally sitting around for hours every day wondering how he can specifically torture Theon? In which case...what is it about Theon that "set him off"? Is Theon somehow insulting to him? On a certain level, the most horrifying thing is the utter randomness of it. Of course, as Stannis finally pointed out later on, I'm not afraid of Ramsay: he has won no battles. Any idiot can tear the wings off a fly he's captured. The Bastard can be ruthless to those he has power over, but he's basically Joffrey without the fear of violence; he doesn't "do" anything, other than basic betrayals...--The Dragon Demands (talk) 05:58, May 13, 2013 (UTC)

Absence due to Britain trip
I'm going on a trip to Britain for the next week starting today, so I will miss tonight's episode and be unable to update until I return next Monday, the night of Memorial Day; thankfully they're taking next week off, so I should be able to catch up on editing before...the events of episode 9. But I have barely been able to edit for episodes 6 and 7 as it stands (I was at least able to watch them, and make some notes, but not writeup full summaries). I'll be starting in Scotland then taking the train down to London, where I'll check out Dover castle. Problem is that my area of study is northern France, not England (part of why I sarcastically mock English things is simply medieval department humor; I'm into France, therefore Philip II Augustus is the hero of the story and John Lackland is the bad guy). Figures that I just missed the current season of Doctor Who.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 17:28, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

Talisa
Anyway, when you can, please check out Talk:Talisa Stark; the "Talisa is a spy" theory is increasingly looking plausible. That youtube video pointing things out about this was a little over-the-top, but I realized that I was practically ignoring her earlier scenes in season 2 because I disliked them so much; on closer inspection, stuff like jokingly saying she is a Lannister spy when Robb asks what letter she's writing back in Season 2 sounds like a hint; or, that she's just trying way too hard to present herself as "I'm a foreigner who knows nothing about Westeros!" (she knows where Lannisport is, but claims she cannot find Winterfell on a map? (okay, she was in the Westerlands at the time, maybe she'd know the biggest local city in the region, but still). Really, all it would amount to is "we condensed Jeyne Westerling with her mother Sybell Spicer" - Jeyne's reaction to things hasn't really been given any focus in the past two books. Surprisingly plausible. What really clinched it was when David J. Peterson started acting shifty about what exactly Talisa was writing in her letter (the inside the episode guide shows the whole thing but it's written in Valyrian). The other thing I realized is they said that things would happen later in the season that "would even shock book fans", but nothing has happened yet which would particularly surprise book fans (yeah Ros died, but that wasn't that much of a game-changer, and "changing the books" albeit book-fans wouldn't know it was coming). This may ultimately be the explanation behind all of the baffling changes to her character, and more importantly, that the writers have been surprisingly silent on why exactly they made these changes; the answer they always give is "we needed to show what Robb was doing", but they avoided 1 - Why is she now from Volantis? 2 - why is she now a walking fantasy stereotype "healer-woman who speaks truth to power"? If it's all an act, that means her cliched performance was *supposed* to sound fake. Didn't Robb ever pause to question her background? Or that Volantene nobles are usually blondes?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 17:28, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

Problems with CestWhat and sockpuppets
Gonzalo84 and I agree that this has become a major problem warranting your attention:

http://vstf.wikia.com/wiki/Report:Users_and_IPs_needing_checked?oldid=25909

User:CestWhat was banned in late March but for the past three months has been coming back onto the wiki under a bewildering array of sockpuppet accounts - TWENTY sockpuppets at last count. She's not being deterred. At the least, we need to get Wikia to ban her global account as punishment for this; but even so, we're going to need an ip range block for her accounts or something.

Worse, she isn't just editing regular articles; the giveaway is that she's obsessed with templates, family trees, and redirects - things that don't normally show up on the "recent edits" list; even template edits often don't show up on the advanced "recent edits" tab; or, rather than replacing image files with new ones she wants, i.e. "MyrcellaSeason1" replaced with "MyrcellaWhatIsDeadMayNeverDie", she was smart enough to insert images she personally wanted by "updating" the original image files instead of creating new ones (which is harder to detect).

This has become a MAJOR distraction. She gets a new account every 3-4 days. Our best attempt so far has been to delete ALL future contributions she makes, even entirely beneficial or positive ones, simply to discourage her from coming back.

The situation isn't getting better and has reached the point where it needs serious attention.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 13:46, June 21, 2013 (UTC)


 * Yet another one today: http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/User:Florenting --The Dragon Demands (talk) 17:13, June 23, 2013 (UTC)

"From this moment on... There will be no further reprisals against civilians. This was stupid. Impotence. Comrades... If a fox stole your chickens... Would you slaughter your pig because he saw the fox? No. You would hunt the fox... You would find where it lives and destroy it! And how do we do this? Become a fox."

I got an e-mail back from our friends at Wikia:


 * Hello,


 * Thank you for contacting Wikia. I've blocked two of the IP addresses used by this vandal, disabling all edits (logged-in and anonymous) from them. I have also disabled the majority of the vandal's accounts, and will be disabling the rest later today. If they manage to evade these bans, please let us know as soon as possible and we will look into further methods of prevention.


 * Regards,
 * Daniel S.
 * Wikia Community Support

--The Dragon Demands (talk) 03:17, June 27, 2013 (UTC)


 * At last!--Gonzalo84 (talk) 06:15, June 27, 2013 (UTC)

Issues raised by the Red Wedding
There are some major categorization issues which need addressing following the Red Wedding:

http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Forum:How_to_handle_post-Red_Wedding_Great_Houses

http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:War_of_the_Five_Kings#"The_End"_of_the_War

--The Dragon Demands (talk) 19:01, June 26, 2013 (UTC)

Lord of Light vs R'hllor
Need you to weigh in on this, ser: Talk:R'hllor.

--The Dragon Demands (talk) 17:06, June 27, 2013 (UTC)

New Licensed Wikia Video
Hey Werthead,

I am writing to give you some exciting news - Wikia Video has recently received some fresh videos for the Game of Thrones wiki. Many of the videos embedded on wikis come from sites like YouTube and often become unavailable when they are removed or taken down for copyright violations there. To help provide a reliable and legal option, Wikia has licensed thousands of videos for use on your wikis from several content partners. These are all found in Wikia Video. They are viewable worldwide and Wikia has the full license for these videos, which means your wiki can use them anywhere you like.

Through a quick search, I found this set of videos for the Game of Thrones Wiki. Please let me know if you need any help adding them to your community, or if you have feedback on the videos. We are working hard to improve the content and tools for adding videos, so let me know your thoughts or if you have any questions.

Nick 17:20, July 16, 2013 (UTC)

Proposed template.
Hello.

I Hope this isnt to bold of me, but i have created a set of templates im hoping the GOT wiki would be-able to use. I was speaking with The Dragon Demands, but he has just now informed me that i was speaking to the wrong person and that i should speak to you. If i had known that, i would have gone to you first.

Anyway, I understand that you have your own admin template, and that it gets the job done, but i think this one would be a slight improvement. I know i dont edit here (and most of my edits have apparently be bad), but im hoping that these templates will be of some help to you. I understand you may not use these, but i thought it would be better to ask then to assume. User:Cheatcodechamp/Sandbox

Thank you for your time, and happy editing-Cheatcodechamp (talk) 01:32, August 4, 2013 (UTC)


 * Thats good enough for me, i know there isnt a guarantee, it would be stupid to think otherwise. Since i doubt me messaging every admin here to look at the template would come off as me spamming them all, ill leave how the templates are handled and judged to you guys. Thanks and happy editing.-Cheatcodechamp (talk) 15:26, August 4, 2013 (UTC)

Twitter
I forgot that this Wiki has an official twitter channel. It hasn't been updated in almost a year, but it would be good for site promotion. Can you share the password with the other Administrators so we can make better use of it?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 15:45, August 11, 2013 (UTC)

Regarding Dragon Demands
I can't be quiet any longer. Nearly every time I look at a User talk edit Dragon makes, I see something like this: Punjabiknight's talk page:

''"Last and final warning", eh? You're not in a position to give warnings now that I have your head symbolically mounted on a spike on my userpage.

Yes, my intention was to insult you, and I continue'' to insult you. I am so brazenly confident in my ability to destroy you at this point that for god's sake, I'm openly mounting your head on a spike on my userpage. I need "dare" nothing.''

''You haven't contributed since a full year ago. On top of this, most of your edits were fixated on Ygritte, only Ygritte. This obsessive fixation on the pretty red-head really crossed a line at some point. This wiki does not exist to enable your need to masturbate to Rose Leslie's photos. Further, you never truly obeyed the rules to write in proper American English: you persisted in defending sloppy, improper use of British English.''

Your continued existence offends me.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 17:11, June 9, 2013 (UTC)

This rudeness is utterly unnecessary and completely unbefiting of an Admin, especially when most of the people he's rude to are much more polite than he is. Not a single Admin is this hostile, even when confronted with the worst of trolls, yet they manage to keep the wiki running smoothly. Why can't Dragon? Why is someone so rude permitted to continue as an Admin? I have pointed out to him how unnecessary his mannerism is, yet he rebuffs me with the same McGarnigle line from The Simpsons, which is ridiculous since he's not a cop on mean streets, he's an Admin on a wiki site. Insults and immediate hostility is to be expected of trolls and kids arguing in chatspeak, not people who are in charge.

I know I'm not an Admin, and my opinion doesn't carry a lot of weight. But come on, he doesn't even try to hide it anymore and will fly off the rail on his first comments with certain users. Can he at the bare minimum be civil? An Admin shouldn't act like a troll. Thank you for your consideration. DRAEVAN13 23:17, August 15, 2013 (UTC)


 * Draevan13...I made those final comments on PunjabiKnight's account as I was permanently banning him. There is no need to be polite to uncooperative users whom I am permanently throwing off the wiki. "being much more polite than he is" - PK wasn't being more polite than I am, you only need look at the comments he made (which I quoted as I banned him) that he himself was making taunts and idle threats; issuing "final warnings" when he had no right to, vandalizing my own UserPage...and I have to tell you, vandalizing my userpage is a line that if crossed, makes me very riled up.


 * "Most of the other Admins aren't this rude yet manage to keep the trolls in check" -- Draevan...I'm the one doing most of the banning. I have been actively banning most of the trolls and problematic users on this wiki, and you only need look through the ban logs to confirm that. Megatrolls such as LovelyChrys? *Ch'Vyalthan*? The recent war against mega-troll CestWhat? All nearly shut down this wiki and I personally spearheaded the efforts to have them all banned; CestWhat in particular was rough and I had to stay on Wikia's staff until her global account got banned.


 * Moreover, I point out that Draevan conveniently left out the first half of what I posted on PunjabiKnight's talk page, explaining exactly why I was banning him. He only quoted the part where I pronounced sentence. PunjabiKnight was an ass who vandalized my userpage, didn't understand how wikis work, then left without contributing further. I don't regret removing him: he was a fanboy who obsessed about Ygritte, vandalized my userpage, and gave out orders he had no right to give. By the time I banned him he hadn't even edited on this wiki for over a full year, including missing Season 3 entirely. He didn't even contribute much in the first place.


 * I have been harsh, because I get results, damn it.


 * Draevan it is easy for you to judge when you don't have to deal with the landslide of trolling attacks a wiki for a popular TV series gets. I have pursued a hard line on trolls as an ideology: I've seen wikis torn apart because admins weren't willing to ban. Even I wanted to try to "reform" Ch'Vyalthan and look what happened; when we tried to "gently coax" him to reform, he ignored our efforts at toleration.


 * Ideologically, I believe in making examples of the worst trolls and incompetent users: much as Tywin Lannister made an example of House Reyne. Hence why I keep a running list of particularly bad trolls whom I've banned on my userpage ("Heads. Spikes. Walls"). This message of "do not screw with the GoT Wiki Admins" has proven popular enough that other Admins Gonzalo84 and TheBoyWhoCriedDirewolf have copied it, so you can't just point the finger at me.


 * Despite frequently criticizing my methods, however, note that I have never threatened you, Draevan; you're a hard worker who makes substantial contributions. You "get results".


 * That being said, as you've noticed I took a leave of absence (allegedly) after we finally got CestWhat banned. I'm facing a lot of In Real Life career problems on top of this and my thesis has all kinds of trouble: the stress of handling CestWhat's thirty sockpuppet handles combined with real life stress wasn't easy. That was back in June when I was feeling out of sorts - which is also when I made those comments on PunjabiKnight's banned page.


 * So yes, things were pretty frustrating back in June, but now we're in mid-August. About late July I realized just how frustrated I'd become from CestWhat's attacks and needed to step back from the urge to see trolling everywhere (given that CestWhat was coming back under dozens of assumed names, editing regularly until we realized it was her).


 * In short, Draevan, I've kept this wiki running smoothly, by being vigilant about trolling, and being strict with uncooperative new editors - specifically because I want to prevent the rise of the next Ch'Vyalthan. I have maintained Order, and I did what I had to do. The other Admins rejoiced when I got CestWhat globally banned: http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:The_Dragon_Demands#The_Pest_is_gone - I didn't try to beg CestWhat to behave properly. A true victory is to make your enemy see they were wrong to oppose you in the first place.


 * For long stretches of time Gonzalo84, QueenBuffy, TheBoyWhoCriedDirewolf, and I have been overburdened with work from Season 3. Being overburdened leads to such frustrations and low tolerance for those unwilling to get with the program and play nice. If you feel we are overtaxed, I'm of half a mind to agree. In which case, my suggestion is to promote Mesmermann and Greater Good to Administratorship, to help the rest of us keep a handle on things and decrease the overall workload.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 01:44, August 16, 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm not arguing with your results. I'm arguing with your methods.
 * How is it that on all the wikis I visit such as Fallout wiki, Mass Effect wiki, Jericho wiki, Elder Scrolls wiki, and many others, I don't see any Admins being as rude and hostile as you, and yet their wikis all run smoothly. How are their Admins able to do the job while being polite and civil while you can't seem to go a week without posting a completely unnecessary rant like you did on Punjabiknight's page? I've seen much worse than him on other wikis, yet they are dealt with without resorting to insults and hostility. You're the one and only Admin I've seen who does this. If all the others can do their job without being "McGarnigle", you can too. That's my point. What you do is unnecessary. The alternative to what you do isn't necessarily "begging". If someone is a troll to you, you don't act like he does. If you lower yourself to the level of the people you ban, you're no better than they are. Especially when no other Admins act like you do, yet this wiki ran fine before you showed up. DRAEVAN13 Targaryen.JPG 02:34, August 16, 2013 (UTC)


 * I don't want to fight with you on this, Draevan. Yes, the ranting got unnecessary at times but I was overburdened with trying to keep everything together. I honestly see no reason why I should have been more "polite" to PunjabiKnight given that I was announcing his permanent ban at the time. Yes, other wikis particularly Mass Effect Wiki are quite scrupulous about removing edits and throwing people off in order to maintain a higher standard.


 * You could have addressed these concerns personally and I would have agreed; instead you complained directly to Werthead. That being said, yeah, the rough patch is over and I want to ease up on things. June was a madhouse.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 02:43, August 16, 2013 (UTC)


 * And considering the message the Wikia manager Brandon Rhea left on your wall, I'm not the only person thinking this. DRAEVAN13 Targaryen.JPG 02:39, August 16, 2013 (UTC)


 * Draevan, Brandon Rhea voiced his concerns because we locked down the wiki to try to draw attention to how big of a problem CestWhat was becoming. I honestly believe that if I hadn't drawn attention to CestWhat through such a massive lockdown, Wikia might not have actively pursued globally blocking her IP addresses and accounts. Things worked as planned, given that we were fighting a troll who made over thirty sockpuppet accounts, and who was clever enough to mess with Templates so they wouldn't show up in the Recent Changes tab. Gonzalo84 also went along with this lockdown at the time; the Admins needed to take extreme measures. It was my intention to attract the attention of Wikia staff so they'd finally help us deal with the CestWhat problem, and they did.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 02:47, August 16, 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm not referring Brandon's views on the "Plan R", I'm referring to what he said about your comments. To quote what he put on your talk page:
 * " Additionally, your comments saying “CHOKE ON YOUR OWN POISON” are highly inappropriate. Please refrain from saying that again."
 * And why would I try to talk to you about it again? I tried twice before and you just brushed it off with the "McGarnigle" quote. So I took it a step higher.
 * I'm not saying you should be a goody two-shoes or an angel. But how about being civil? How about not insulting and/or mocking? If all the other Admins can do it, then you can too. That's all I'm asking. DRAEVAN13 Targaryen.JPG 02:55, August 16, 2013 (UTC)


 * In that case, I will say...dealing with CestWhat's attacks at the end of Season 3 was very rough, and I'm sorry that this frustration drove me to being uncivil at times. Yes, I do honestly promise to be more civil in the future now that these attacks are behind us. I'd rather not fight about this. There is a massive amount of work remaining to be done and both of our time would be better devoted on other things. You weren't in my place and didn't have to face all of this firsthand. I'm sorry if I've upset you. I stand by my banning decisions; some of the comments I made to "departing" banned users were not civil, and I should cut down on that. On a separate tangent...you honestly don't like McGarnigle?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 03:01, August 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * It's not that I don't like McGarnigle, it's that he has a very good reason for being harsh, i.e a cop on mean streets with his life on the line every day will, understandably, be harsh. The way you used him in the comparison is, in my opinion, not apt to your situation. DRAEVAN13 Targaryen.JPG 03:12, August 16, 2013 (UTC)


 * I didn't want to outright come and say this, but I will. Comments such as the PunjabiKnight banning goodbye were made around June, the same time that Season 3's influx was at its height, and CestWhat's sockpuppet attacks were at their height. On top of this...due to several upstanding circumstances, in June at the end of Spring semester, I basically dropped out of school and I'm just finishing up my late thesis at this point to get a token degree, and ever since I've been shopping around for new schools (there are no medieval jobs now and PhD programs are drying up like a desert). Needless to say this made me more than a little loopy for about a month or so. After I finally got rid of CestWhat I realized my frustration was brimming over so I allegedly took a "wiki break" as I say on my userpage (yet I keep coming back to fill in culture things...) So I was pretty nuts about things in June, but things have gotten under control now. This was combined with the pressure of large-scale troll attacks and in general, I do think that my strict "do not screw with this wiki" readiness to ban has done a fairly good job of maintaining Order. I haven't particularly ranted at anyone in the past month or so and I would like to keep it that way: "civil". Tensions were running high in June due to events both on and off the wiki. I understand your concerns, but June was a pretty "low ebb" for me and at the time it made me feel better to extensively lambast those I was banning at the time. That was two months ago, this is now. I actually considered posting an apology about all of the shouting when I started editing a lot again a week ago, but on second thought didn't because I thought it would only drag up old wounds from two months ago. Can we move forward, civily? June was a very loopy time for me and I'd rather not use it as the single picture of my overall activity on this wiki.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 05:16, August 16, 2013 (UTC)

Draevan: I understand where you're coming from, and agree with some of what you've said, but I think labelling the Dragon as "the only" admin who does this is unfair/inaccurate. I myself can, and have in the past "flown of the handle" with users, and yes, there are sometimes mitigating circumstances where someone who wouldn't usually behave in such a way does, and comes to regret it later.

I think it's important here to bear in mind Wikia's "Terms of Use" when deciding weather or not an admin's behaviour is truly unacceptable, and I think that the Dragon (while rude at times) generally falls on the right side of the law in this matter. Not to say that this is always the case... unfortunately there have been occasions where he has crossed the line; the most recent being this interaction with Tia Serena. I think/hope that you, Dragon, realise that calling her a "slag" was unacceptable, and a direct violation of Wikia's terms of use regarding "abusive/ malicious communications". However that being said, I was also unnecessarily rude to her in the same message... like I said, mitigating circumstances... we were both angry with her, and went too far.

I think the bottom line here is that there needs to be greater communication between users and admins (something we would all benefit from). Draevan, your concerns are perfectly valid, and you deserve to have them addressed in a serious manner without being handed the same Simpsons reference. At the same time you need to bear in mind that the daily running/management of this massive site falls on the shoulders of five people, and I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that the Dragon does the vast majority of this. So, yes, tempers do flare (especially when a season of the show is running) and heads do roll as a result of this; sometimes deservedly... sometimes not... I think a little more patience from all parties would be a good thing (and I count myself in this).

And Dragon, you must bear in mind that violating the terms of use in the way that you have (Tia Serena) is a serious matter; not just for you, but for the whole community. Yes, Wikia can strip you of your admin status, but it reflects badly on us as a whole, and discourages people from editing here.

I think I've said enough.

Peace out!-- 10:32, August 16, 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, you explained this will and even-handedly. Sorry, things were getting out of hand back in June (oh...for the record I usually use fictional derogatory words and curse words because I dislike using real ones. "Slag" was from Transformers).--The Dragon Demands (talk) 13:29, August 16, 2013 (UTC)


 * Regarding the Dragon, I stand by the Boy's opinion. Users like Ch'vyalthan, CestWhat, Celtic-Oranje have gotten under ours nerves and we need to be patient to differentiate people that just require a little guidance to get use to our enviroment and those that should be kept away from here.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 17:03, August 16, 2013 (UTC)


 * Dragon, why are you telling Admins I said I don't think you should be an Admin? That's not what I said here, please don't twist my words. What I said was you should be civil when talking with users, to not do what you did on Punjabiknight or Tia's talk page. I never said you shouldn't be an Admin, just that I think you need to change your behavior. DRAEVAN13 Targaryen.JPG 21:03, August 18, 2013 (UTC)


 * Oh...I honestly misconstrued what you were saying. Things are pretty down on my end at the moment and I'm always expecting the worst, sorry about that. Well, yes, I wasn't very civil in June because things were pretty nuts but I have been (or at least tried to be) since. Also I've tried to alleviate the situation by conferring with the other Admins to get Greater Good set up as an Admin so each of us doesn't have to shoulder so much of the workload. Anyway yes, I've been sufficiently cowed, I'll keep a wrap on that in the future (though, like the other Admins or Mass Effect Wiki, I still don't think effort should be wasted on trying to "rehabilitate" those not helping, but you yourself said you were more concerned with my manner). Alright then.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 21:09, August 18, 2013 (UTC)

Greater good for admin

 * I have begun a vote to make Greater Good an admin. Your input and vote would be appreciated. Forum:Greater_good_for_Admin.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 17:14, August 16, 2013 (UTC)

Language map
I can't draw very well but I added this map to Languages: http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/File:Language_map.png If it can be improved on please change it as seems best.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 20:40, August 17, 2013 (UTC)


 * Your map is better than the crude one I set up. One point: should "Ghiscari" get its own color? Because for all intents and purposes it is explicitly stated to be a dead language. Elements of the old Ghiscari language were absorbed by the Low Valyrian used in Slaver's Bay, i.e. basic words like for "mother" (Mhysa), but that isn't the actual language. I'd...compare it to how the Celtic language "Gaulish" died out when Latin was imposed on France, and you'd historically point to "Gaulish" influence to explain why French is different from Italian, but a distinct "Gaulish" language didn't exist anymore. So I'm not sure if Ghiscari should be considered separately from Low Valyrian = particularly given that both Peterson and on-air dialogue ("you speak Valyrian?!") refer to the language of Slaver's Bay as "Valyrian". I have no idea what to do for Skagos; I think the...implication, is that they speak Common Tongue now, but they just have a lot of words left over from Old Tongue. I'd keep it using Common Tongue colors.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 13:57, August 18, 2013 (UTC)

House affiliation
Out of blind curiosity, what is your House affiliation?

So far among the Admins we've got:


 * QueenBuffy - Lannister
 * Opark77 - Stark
 * Gonzalo84 - Stark
 * The Boy Who Cried Direwolf - Bolton
 * The Dragon Demands - Targaryen
 * Greater Good - Greyjoy

--The Dragon Demands (talk) 02:36, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

Tommen recast?!?!
Ser, the shit has just hit the proverbial fan. Rumors abound that Tommen Baratheon may be recast for Season 4....using Dean-Charles Chapman, who played Tommen's first cousin Martyn Lannister in Season 3! This requires immediate attention and alertness for more reports...--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:43, August 19, 2013 (UTC)


 * Ser, new and substantial reports are coming in that Chapman appeared at the Red Carpet for Season 4, and indeed now plays Tommen. WinterIsComing.net has made no official statement just yet. But this is one of the more important recastings (not quite as big as Daario, but fairly large) and requires your attention.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 14:52, March 20, 2014 (UTC)

NOT A DRILL: More recasting news - Daario recast
This is not a frakking drill: Hollywood Reporter says that Michiel Huisman is actually replacing Ed Skrein as Daario Naharis. http://winteriscoming.net/2013/08/treme-actor-joins-the-cast/ Repeat: Daario Naharis allegedly recast. --The Dragon Demands (talk) 01:31, August 30, 2013 (UTC)


 * Now Hollywood Reporter says it CONFIRMS that Daario Naharis has been recast: http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/game-thrones-books-treme-alum-616705 --The Dragon Demands (talk) 01:33, August 30, 2013 (UTC)

GREGOR "THE MOUNTAIN THAT RIDES" CLEGANE RECAST
And the hits just keep on coming: http://winteriscoming.net/2013/08/mountain-recast/

They've recast him with Hafþór Júlíus Björnsson, 6 foot 9 inch tall "Strongest Man in Iceland".--The Dragon Demands (talk) 16:40, August 30, 2013 (UTC)

Noble Houses categorization
Should Noble Houses be categorized under "Characters" or under "Culture & Society"?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 17:21, August 31, 2013 (UTC)

Social groups, culture, society... not characters.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 17:57, August 31, 2013 (UTC)

"Institutes" and "Organizations"
Seems a little redundant (Though all "institutes" are organizations but not every organization is an institute). Shouldn't it be "institutions". --Gonzalo84 (talk) 17:59, August 31, 2013 (UTC)


 * Been that way for a while but we had bigger concerns. I think we should merge them both into just "Organizations".--The Dragon Demands (talk) 19:22, August 31, 2013 (UTC)

Regions template acting weird
The regions template I made doesn't appear when you click on "view" or "edit" - but it is displaying normally otherwise. I don't know why. http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/The_Crownlands#References --The Dragon Demands (talk) 03:57, September 13, 2013 (UTC)

This series is amazing, that is all.

Doctor Malfatto (talk) 19:27, October 7, 2013 (UTC)Doctor_Malfatto

Hi

Quick question  - I'm new in and was trying to edit a misspelling of an actor's name.

It's also the info box that appears on the actor's page

Where are the edits for those?

Cheers

Chris

​Drofidnas (talk) 16:17, October 10, 2013 (UTC)

Hello. I was taking a look at the wiki, and I realised that it doesn't have a "Character Appearances" article. Was it because you admins decided not to have one, or can I create one? --PSalf (talk) 01:05, October 12, 2013 (UTC)

Book of Hodor
I've created the Book of Hodor. For a while you can find it here:

https://db.tt/KvWeSkym

Cheers,

Z2n0` (talk) 10:46, November 4, 2013 (UTC)Zeno`


 * The novelty of that wore off really fast. And mental disability is no laughing matter.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 15:17, November 4, 2013 (UTC)

Octavia Alexandru's role
Red alert, ser. How do we handle such massive spoiler casting? http://winteriscoming.net/2013/11/octavia-alexandrus-role-revealed/ --The Dragon Demands (talk) 15:34, November 13, 2013 (UTC)

Season 3 histories & lore speculation
I've been speculating on what we might get in the "histories and lore" this year in the Season 3 special features. Dare we hope for a House Florent? Would an explanation of Jaehaerys I and the Nightfort fit better in a Targaryen video (i.e. narrated by Barristan) or in a Night's Watch video?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:46, November 18, 2013 (UTC)

Licensed Video Swap
Hola, my name is Nic and I'm a member of the Wikia Community Development team. Recently our Special:LicensedVideoSwap tool has been updated with a list of new content for your wiki. For more information on this, please view here. If you would like assistance in swapping these videos, feel free to ask. - Wagnike2 (talk) 20:00, November 21, 2013 (UTC)

Links in nav headlines
Should there be links in navigation headlines? http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/And_Now_His_Watch_is_Ended?diff=108246&oldid=106139 --The Dragon Demands (talk) 22:35, December 4, 2013 (UTC)

Fluid Layout
Just curious who will take care of the changes when the Fluid Layout is released? I'm definitely not a candidate, as I'm confused by it all, but just thought I'd remind you about it :) 05:28, December 5, 2013 (UTC)

Westeros.org account
I tried signing up for a Westeros.org account - for both forum and AWOIAF - when I joined this wiki over a year ago, but something went wrong. The account exists but it won't let me log in to anything.

I refuse to take another screenname, the technology should work.

I've been putting this off but it is affecting my ability to double-check things on AWOIAF or in the forums, in order to them work on here.

I now seriously need someone to flag down the forum/wiki/website admins on Westeros.org that my user account is screwed up and I need them to somehow fix it.

I really need your help with this, passing it along to the proper channels for tech problems.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 00:13, December 6, 2013 (UTC)

Nevermind, I fixed it! Finally. Turns out the problem was that I set up the account way back when with an e-mail account I don't use anymore - thus when I hit "I forgot my password" it would reset it, to a new random number string sent to that old account - the problem being that the old account was so old that yahoomade it inactive. So I had to reactivate it to find my other reactivation code. Now, all is well.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 22:23, December 8, 2013 (UTC)

Google deal
How does this affect us? http://www.theguardian.com/media/2013/dec/03/google-game-of-thrones-hbo --The Dragon Demands (talk) 14:02, December 6, 2013 (UTC)

GoT 2012 RPG video game on the wiki
This requires your attention, ser, it is beyond my authority:

http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Draevan13/Why_is_the_2012_RPG_not_considered_canon_on_this_site%3F http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Game_of_Thrones_(2012_role-playing_game)

--The Dragon Demands (talk) 15:01, December 10, 2013 (UTC)

To be honest, I was simply curious as to why it's non-canon.  DRAEVAN13  23:11, December 10, 2013 (UTC)

Video tools
I need to download some Flash videos from the internet to make screencaps. What is the best/most easily available Flash video downloading program?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 20:57, December 10, 2013 (UTC)

Red Alert: First Season 4 teaser trailer
WinterIsComing.net just got wind that the first Season 4 teaser trailer aired Saturday night -- possibly to preview a longer trailer tonight? It includes *actual footage*, not just a logo. Doesn't show anything particularly distinct - the most noteworthy is that Jaime Lannister is all cleaned up after his ordeal with a haircut and shave (I don't think he shaved in the books) - and wearing a Lannister-style asymmetric coat again. If you look real hard at the few screencaps over on WiC.net we can see a glimpse of Jaime's new prosthetic hand.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 21:01, December 15, 2013 (UTC)

Why Draevan13 must be banned
User:Draevan13 must be banned. I cannot ban him myself because this would be inappropriate. I would prefer to have him permanently banned, but I think he should be at least banned until the Season 4 premiere.

I have written this not out of anger or frustration but after several days of thinking on what to say. This is not because of Draevan13's increasing complaints against me, which led to the recent poll about my Admin rights (which I thankfully won).

Rather, Draevan13 made several...bizarre comments, during this, which gave me pause. Which made me analyze several things regarding his activity on this wiki.

The bizarre thing is that Draevan13 said he doesn't consider himself a regular editor on this wiki....even though he comes on here on a near daily basis now. This just struck me as strange. If he's not on here to edit....what is he getting out of coming on every day?

When I said that I would support him if he made an Admin run, I was being genuine (at the time). Bizarrely, he said he doesn't want to invest the time involved to be an Admin, even with my promised support. Add to this that he doesn't even consider himself a regular editor.

Well, this made me go through his contributions list, and if you filter out Talk page chatter and blogs...he's made under twenty actual contribution edits to articles since the Season 3 finale, a full six months ago. And many of these edits weren't very significant:

He made no article edits in June and July.

August
 * - Minor edit to "Seven Kingdoms"
 * Minor edit to "Siege of Storm's End"

September
 * - Minor vandalism revert on "Hodor"
 * - Minor vandalism revert on "Currency".
 * - Minor spelling edit on Jaqen H'ghar.
 * - Minor link/grammar edits on "Red Wedding"
 * - Minor spelling edit on "Liberation of Harrenhal"
 * - A bit of extra info added to the "in the books" section on Sack of Winterfell.
 * - Minor edit to "Old Gods of the Forest"
 * - Minor spelling edit to "Direwolves"
 * - Small addition to "in the books" for "R'hllor"
 * - Minor vandalism revert on "White Knife"
 * - Minor edits to "Craster's Keep"
 * - Minor link edits to "Differences between books and TV series"

October
 * - Minor vandalism revert to "Night's Watch"

Under twenty edits on actual articles, none of them particularly substantive. And Draevan13 has said in his own words he doesn't edit on a regular basis. But why, then, if you go through his contributions tab, filtering out these few actual article edits, do we find nearly a hundred edits in the same time period on blogs and talk pages? 

Those twenty article edits were mostly a spelling/grammar fix here, a fixed link there, here and there hitting "Undo" to revert vandalism. These blog and talk pages comments were entire paragraphs, if not short essays.

Draevan13's actual contributions to this wiki are utterly out of proportion with the amount of time he spends on blogs and talk pages. Often discussing factors from the books he didn't like which aren't directly relevant to the TV show (I recently had to delete three of the huge ones because they were attracting too many book spoilers).

But this is beyond my usual stance that "community members" gain "higher standing" with more regular edits of substance and contributions (though I have realized....Draevan13 hasn't really been working at ALL since Season 3 ended, has he?). This is only a contributing factor.

It isn't just that he's barely contributing to actual articles, despite the fact that he's on here regularly simply discussing the TV show. We've had other editors like that before.

Rather, he's coming onto the wiki specifically to harass the Admins about how they run it, questioning decisions they make....which he can't understand because he barely contributes.

But what really made me look up and realize "this guy cannot stay on this wiki" is this:

On some self-help talk show once, Dr. Phil I think, someone was having a big problem...I forget what it was; maybe sex addiction, maybe they were drinking too often but couldn't control themselves. That's irrelevant, the point is this: they wanted to stop doing self-damaging things but couldn't stop. And Phil's answer was to admonish them that "on some level, you're getting something out of this destructive behavior, otherwise you truly wouldn't keep doing it. So you are 'getting something out of this' - maybe you've fallen into a pattern where you like being angry so you go to places you know you'll be frustrated."

Well, fuzzy example, but this made me realize: why the heck is Draevan13 coming onto this wiki on a near-daily basis, when he's barely edited actual articles in the past six months? When we are so far behind from Season 3 that there was ample work he could have been doing? He's not just coming on here to use it as a messageboard - while he does try to force the blog and talk pages to be like that, if he just wanted to chat he could be using a messageboard at Westeros.org or wherever.

My strong suspicion now is that Draevan13 is what, in the wiki-world, might be known as a Contrarian: not quite the same as a "troll" who makes edits to harass and taunt other users. Instead, he's got a massive chip on his shoulder about authority, and sees the Admins as oppressing him.

Sort of a variation on how Cersei "sees caution for cowardice, and dissent for defiance" -- Draevan13 is upset about "Tyrannical Admins" so any firm action or defense of policy is seen as senseless tyranny. Now such charges might be well and good from a regular editor frustrated with limitations....but Draevan13 isn't really editing anything. All of his edits for the past six months, to actual articles, have been so insignificant as to be inconsequential.

He's only coming onto the wiki for the enjoyment of playing freedom fighter and harassing "the mean old Admins".

Maybe Draevan13 thought there would be an outpouring of antipathy against me during the recent polling, instead of the feeling that this wasn't very necessary and I just needed a warning - He did outwardly say he was against it...but was that just him covering his tracks? Who has been the one beating the war drum against me for months? I have a mental image of that Futurama episode where Bender gets onto "All My Circuits" by having his friends stand outside the audition door and cheer "we want Bender!" despite the fact there's only thee of them. Draevan13 has been needlessly enflaming tensions which otherwise would never have reached such points.

But going over heads to complain directly to Wikia this past time? I understand his point that he wanted a response and no one was acting on it - but we've now reached the point where I think he's just going to dangle that over our heads so long as he's on here: "don't talk down to me Admin, I can complain to Wikia!" - who, not knowing the context, might take him seriously.

What struck me as bizarre was in the recent blog question he had over the 2012 video game: - I bluntly, but not mockingly, told him that quite simply, Werthead sets policy and I don't, this isn't something he should ask about in a public blog but to ask the head Bureacrat and founder. His knee-jerk response? "Ooookay, someone's in a bad mood."

It is difficult to work as an Admin on here when we have this guy leering over our shoulders at every moment, not actually working, but looking for an excuse to call use "moody" or unreasonable, so he can eventually complain about it elsewhere.

He just doesn't seem to understand that he doesn't set policy. Werthead, you saw his discussion over the 2012 video game. He accepted at face value that GRRM "wrote" the game and provided a voice for it, so the Mean Old Admins were harassing him by not including it. Even though he actually just didn't do a thorough job of checking the credits and actually cannot prove that Martin gave it anything more than a go-ahead.

So in short, we're stuck with a Contrarian, who does little to no real work, yet comes in on a daily basis to "fight the good fight" against the Power Mad Admins?

He even has a taunting message he wrote on his Profile page:

"Power Mad Admins: I just want to point out that I have very little patience for admins who think they're all high and mighty because they're admins on a wikipedia site. Seriously, get over yourselves. You're not that special. In the end it doesn't matter, since whether they're right or wrong, they can simply ban you out of spite if they want. Power corrupts, after all. Some aren't suited for it before they get it, and after, they get worse. ​Like Admins who block people simply for pointing out a flaw said Admin. Once. Not rudely, he simply pointed it out. And then BAM, blocked. No warning, nothing, just blocked. Because he can block with impunity and without a reason. Power-mad Admins. Fun stuff.

He wrote that up in late March 2013 (existed in a few revisions since January). This was his comment how how "power mad" the Admins had become...by cracking down on super-vandals such as Ch'Vyalthan and CestWhat? He wasn't editing enough to realize just how bad things were getting (Cestwhat's campaign of two dozen sockpupets reached its height at that time). He went so far as to compliment Ch'Valyathan on his calm patience for my criticisms -- because Ch'Vyalthan was a god-damned robot who didn't react at all when we pointed out massive flaws in his editing. Granted, Draevan13 ultimately voted against Ch'Vyalthan....after he already saw what way the wind was blowing and that so many other editors were angry at him.

Quite simply, Draevan13 is now camped out on this wiki, not actually editing, but simply to harass the Admins. This is what he "gets out of it". Contradicting the Admins, threatening to complain to Wikia when we disagree -- this isn't the "Game of Thrones Wiki" to him, it's the "Have Fun Taking a Shot At Admins" Wiki. The crazy part is that I'd have helped him run for Admin (in the past) had he wanted it.

But he's washed his hands of that. His stated goal is to harass the Admins. He's openly declared that he doesn't want to regularly contribute to articles, nor does he want to officially police other articles as an Admin.

Consider how much time and effort was lost to the malcontent he has sown and...legitimate criticisms of my performance, which might have done with a warning at worst but which he inflamed out of proportion.

I submit this request because after reading his bizarre comments about how he views his activity on the wiki, and seeing his bizarre attitudes towards canon and who sets it in the recent blog post....I do not think it is constructive to have him on the wiki. Not in his current mental state anyway. He's been encouraged that he can push around Admins, can tauntingly insinuate, "oh, you're being moody for telling me something isn't canon which I didn't fully research. Maybe I'll report on you to Wikia". Given how little he contributes relative to the amount of complaints, I think that somewhere along the way a line was crossed and this turned into simple harassment. Does Draevan13 rule on Game of Thrones Wiki, or do the Admins? Does Draevan13 rule, or does Werthead?

He's going to keep doing things like this and slow us down even more - we're already behind and new material comes with the next Blu ray featurettes on February 14th. We don't have time for this.

Most of all the thought just struck me: what the heck is he doing on this wiki? He isn't regularly contributing, outright stated he doesn't want to, nor does he want to be an Admin. He comes on here to play out his petty grievances against the very concept of authority. But he is not the Law.

I think he should be permanently banned, because....quite simply, what good would a month-long or three month-long ban actually do? He's not posting out of frustration and needs a cool-down period. His opinions about the Admins and authority are deep-seated and have been this way for a year, he just keeps popping up with it every few weeks. Will a three month ban sufficiently cow him into submission? Make him think "wow, I was wrong to do that"? Heck no, it's only going to make him even more angry and set against the Admins when he returns (granting him that mercy would "only sow the seeds of future rebellions"). So its best to just cut off the rotting limb all at once.

This request is not a snap-judgement. I've been sitting down for days reading through Draevan13's statements and trying to make some sense of what exactly he wants - quite simply he enjoys trolling the Admins through legitimate means. He's not an editor. I want permission to ban him. I will abide by the decision of Werthead and the other Admins.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:15, December 18, 2013 (UTC)

A few things:

1) He's harrassing the Admins:  Disagreeing with  YOU  and  ONLY YOU  and  NO ONE  ELSE  does not equal harrassing all the Admins. Since several other Admins agreed with me about your behavior, this first point is utterly invalid.

2) He's a troll, or close enough: Really? What proof do you have of this?

3) He's on here every day but barely contributes: I work in a call center, Dragon. I have periods of utterly nothing to do here at work. I'm also on Elder Scrolls Wiki where I'm also on blogs and talk pages and threads and rarely contribute there. You don't hear them complaining.

4) What is he doing on this wiki? If I want to come here and peruse articles, add my opinion to talk pages and make some blogs,  that's none of you damn business.  Since when is contributing regularly a requirement of being on a wiki?

I would also like to point out what a bloody  HYPOCRITE  you are, Dragon. I discuss my disagreements with you several times before going to the Admins, and you whine about how I should have come to you first. Then you turn around and do this? The very thing you whined about? Are you being serious? You are such a hypocrite. You realise that, right? You complain about how I should have discussed my problems with you (which I did several times and you blatantly ignored me) before going to the Admins, then you do this? Without EVER discussing the matter with me ONCE?

I think you're trying to ban me out of pettyness, to be honest. I think the fact I reported you to the Wikia Admins pissed you off and this is your petty revenge. Even though SEVERAL OTHER ADMINS AND USERS also reported you to the Wikia Central, you can't take your anger out on them so you're targeting me instead.  DRAEVAN13  18:54, December 18, 2013 (UTC)


 * "Since when is contributing regularly a requirement of being on a wiki?" -- for contributing, it is not a requirement. But you contribute so little that you don't seem to be able to accurately judge or evaluate the work that the Admins have to put in.


 * How is this in any way comparable? I should go to you first? This wasn't a personal criticism. I've already discussed this "with you personally" in the past. Things have reached the point where I feel you need to be thrown off of the wiki forever, but rather than do so unilaterally, I did the right thing and asked the other Admins what they think (and thank you for contacting the other Admins via Talk page I was getting to that). You going to Wikia et al jumping over Admins was a faux pas because you are a common editor. As an Administrator....what the heck is unusual about me going to the wiki's Bureaucrat, who is the very next step in rank above me? You can't compare the two situations.


 * You stated, in as many words, that you only come on here to "peruse" articles, you're not actually contributing...though you have time to devote extensive effort to the Elder Scrolls Wiki...yet you will jump on Admin actions or decisions at any opportunity.


 * I'm reading through the lines here, and it is inevitable that Draevan13 is just going to keep pestering the Admins over their decisions until things come to a head. Well, better to get it out of the way now instead of dragging it out. Then I and everyone else can get back to writing more articles for people to "peruse".


 * What we have here, is the dangerous combination of a casual visitor who isn't on here enough to understand the pressures, decisions, and policies which go into the wiki...combined with an all-too-eagerness to complain to higher ups and blow things out of proportion. This is harmful to the wiki, and its long-term function.


 * What we have here, is failure to communicate.

--The Dragon Demands (talk) 19:09, December 18, 2013 (UTC)

Yes, the two situations are comparable. You say I should have talked to you about my problems (which I did and you ignored) before going to the Admins, then you go to the Admins without ever discussing it with me first.

Really? You came to me and talked to me about your problems? Where exactly did you do that, because my talk page is utterly devoid of any such topics.

Why do you keep saying I'm "harrassing all the Admins" when the only person I've disagreed with is YOU? ONLY YOU. I've told you a million times, I'm not against banning people, I'm against mocking them and insulting them for no reason like you do. I have no idea where you're getting the idea I'm against banning people. I agreed to banning Chy' Vylathan, for crying out loud.

The majority of my edits on TES Wiki are blogs, threads and talk pages. I don't have time to make 2,600 edits on two wikis at once, sue me. I prefer editing on TES wiki than here, that hardly seems a reason to ban me.

Isn't it also odd how I've never heard an Admin or User here have a problem with me other than you, yet Admins and users both have spoken out against you. You really are just trying to have me banned because I reported you. The fact you're trying to outright perma-ban me r ather than discuss your issues further re-inforces this.

And how is it my fault if people post book spoilers on my blogs? I've never made a blog about a book spoiler topic on this wiki, if people post spoilers there it's not my fault.

Here's how I see it. Am  I:

Vandalising? No. Trolling? No. Spamming? No. Insulting? No. Making incorrect edits? No. Posting Spoilers? No. Harrassing? No. (Disagreeing with a single person which the Admins agreed with is not harrasment, whatever Dragon says)  DRAEVAN13  19:45, December 18, 2013 (UTC)

1 - ...Wikis have a command hierarchy: Users-->Administrators-->Bureaucrats--->Wikia. Granted, Admins/Bureaucrats sometimes blur together. It's normal for me to go to other Admins about issues with a regular User....because I myself am an Admin. You are not. I am not, fundamentally, deriding that you eventually complained to the other Admins on this wiki (the frequent "I'll go to Wikia" threats, not so much)...but if anything it is MORE UNUSUAL for you to go to the Admins or Wikia because I outrank you and am myself an Administrator.'

2 - As for "discussing this" with you...my [Draevan13's] talk page is empty" ---that's because you yelled at me on my talk page, other Admin Talk pages, or blog/forum pages. We've all seen them so I'm not going to argue that point further. 3 - The spoiler-filled blogs are not an outright reason for banning that I'm bringing up - simply highlighting that you spend more time on them than on actual editing, yet claim to be able to judge Admin decisions....even when you don't seem to know what you're talking about, as with the 2012 video game. You therefore have mistaken Admin firmness with tyranny, in many situations. Incidentally, you are a walking spoiler. You have information about Aegon VI prominently displayed on your profile page! That's like having Red Wedding information on your profile during Season 2. You encouraged it by RESPONDING to spoiler replies and engaging in conversation with them. Again, this wasn't an outright reason that made me push for banning....but that I realized that you just drop into the site every day to check on Admins without seeing the context of why they are making decisions. And your frequent comments recently that you have no intention of "regularly" contributing....but policing other editors...while never devoting time to be an Admin yourself? That's an abuse of the system. It will only get worse and it would be better to put an end to it now. Given your infrequent editing combined with harassing Admins and inflaming problems, we only gain from this.

Yes, Draevan13 isn't obviously trolling or vandalizing. He's a tourist. Now when we make command decisions as Admins, he'll be watching our back. Every time we enforce policy, he'll claim we're pushing him around as "moody" Admins; I don't think he conceptually understood that Werthead could simply tell him "no" about the canon status of the 2012 video game (despite all supporting evidence being against him). It is harassment because unless we drop what we're doing and laboriously explain the justification for basic policies, or bans he wasn't paying attention to until they happened, he'll start another round of complaints about Admin power. This is utterly disproportionate to the level of work you're doing.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 19:49, December 18, 2013 (UTC)

Stop. Saying. We. I. Am. Only. Disagreeing. With. You.

Not the other Admins. Not the Wiki's policies.

You. Only you. ' You are not the entire Wiki. '

I have never disagreed with another Admin. Only you. I am not "Harassing the Admins". They agreed with me that you needed to tone it down, for crying out loud.

"You yelled at me"

Considering the insults and mockery you spew at people, using Caps Lock is a pat on the head in comparison.

"He's disagreeing with Werthead about the 2012 video game"

No, I simply had a question and asked it. Didn't realise that was forbidden. Where did I say "no I disagree with you it should be canon"? Nowhere. I had a question and asked. That's all. I'm not saying it should be canon. In fact, I said several times:

"this is a wiki for the show, after all."

"He's talking about a spoiler character, Aegon VI"

You also talked about him on my talk page with me. ' You hypocrite.   DRAEVAN13 ' 20:05, December 18, 2013 (UTC)


 * I was willing to turn a blind eye to some spoilery discussion, but not to the extent seen in the blogs - irrelevant.


 * You can't single this out as a problem with only me - you've openly disdained the power of Admins to make decisions in general...and on a wiki you're not contributing to. Is that what you do when you log into your computer? I go "wow, I hope there's Game of Thrones news today" -- do you log on and go "wow, how can I take the Admins down a peg today?" -- you're doing nothing else at this point.--The Dragon Demands (talk)20:10, December 18, 2013 (UTC)


 * Blogs: I have no control over what people post on my blogs. Stop ignoring that. In fact, I even talked to some of those people and told them to stop posting book spoilers.


 * I have NEVER said I disagree with Admins having power. I disagree with people abusing Admin power, NEVER with them having power. I have that Power-Mad Admin thing on ALL my wiki pages.
 * And, for the millionth time, I don't have a problem with all theother Admins. Only you. Stop ignoring that and pretending I have have a problem with all the Admins. You're making that up.
 * Why do you think you're the entire wiki? You must, because I have said repeatedly I only have a problem with you and what YOU do. No other Admin acts the way you do, so how is it that saying you should stop mocking and unsulting people means, in your mind, that I'm "harrassing all the Admins"? And, once again, THE ADMINS AGREED WITH ME that you needed to tone it down.
 * No. Only you, Dragon. I have NO problem with the other Admins. Stop saying "we" and "us".
 * Only you.
 * And to think I voted  twice  for you to retain your Admin rights.
 * DRAEVAN13 20:31, December 18, 2013 (UTC)

What concerns me is that you're just against Admin authority in general. You're just going to keep picking on Admin decisions, without really being invested in the wiki to understand all of them. I don't want you banned because you complained about me - I want you banned because I realized that you come onto this wiki for seemingly no other purpose than to pick fights with Admins. And if not this round, then in the next, you'll think of something to criticize. You're not an Admin and you don't have that level of oversight on a wiki you barely contribute to. This has gone on long enough.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 21:13, December 18, 2013 (UTC)

Once again, disagreeing with you mocking people (for which the Admins agreed with me) does not mean I'm against Admin authority. Show me one example where I disapproved of something other than you insulting or perma-banning people on the first or first few edits.

"You only come of this wiki to criticise us"

YOU. ONLY YOU. You are not the entire wiki.

Also, I've been on this wiki for almost 2 years. I've spoken out against you 4, maybe 5 times. That's far from "nothing but". Stop being such a drama queen. DRAEVAN13 21:20, December 18, 2013 (UTC)

...According to your Contributions tab, as I explained, in the past six months you've barely edited anything. Just under twenty minor edits. "Four, maybe five times" is a lot, when each "time" includes several dozen back and forth posts which grind activity to a halt. The contributions tab speaks for itself: you're either blogging or criticizing Admin decisions.

They key distinction I draw is that you're not being a regular editor who has complaints. You're just coming on to find fault and complain. If you "don't have time to be a regular editor" (yet still edit Elder Scrolls Wiki), you somehow find the time to complain about Admin decisions you've only half-listened to?

I have been rude in the past and the other Admins have handled that. I ask for this ban because I've realized that this is all Draevan13 does - now, anyway. This isn't a simple accusation based on deriding his edit list -- it's his bizarre public admission that he doesn't even consider himself a regular editor and thus is never in a position to fully pay attention to events on the wiki. --The Dragon Demands (talk) 21:42, December 18, 2013 (UTC)

Will you stop saying I'm criticising Admins' decisions? That is FALSE. I am criticising YOUR decisions to mock and insult people. Just as I thought, you couldn't find any examples of a time when I questioned a decision that wasn't yours. So stop saying I'm criticising the Wiki's Admins. I am questioning YOU and only YOU. And, for the millionth time, the other Admins AGREED with my questioning, which you keep ignoring. It's not pointless criticism if the Admins agree with me that you were a problem.

You are not the entire wiki. Questioning you and only you is not me "harassing the Admins"

Four-five times in 2 years is not a lot, and even if it was...

The other Admins agreed with my criticisms.

DRAEVAN13 21:56, December 18, 2013 (UTC)


 * To clarify: even I agreed with several. But in the process of this revelation and your statements about your work ethic towards this wiki, it slowly dawned on me that you're not really doing anything else.


 * Am I inaccurate? What is your stated goal? You've openly said you don't want to devote the time involved to be a "regular contributor" but you're on almost daily picking over Admin actions for things you might use against them. All in the name of "stopping Power Mad Admins".


 * Moreover many of the Admins did not agree with the overall criticisms of me in terms of degree or severity. Some just said I need to stop making the odd rude comment now and again. You...went through all of my contributions to find stray comments from months ago against vandals you didn't have to face. No, they didn't have a blanket "agreement" to that level. I've had enough of this obstructionism and contrarianism.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 22:07, December 18, 2013 (UTC)


 * No, that was QueenBuffy who went through your comments and added those stray comments to the forum. What made you think it was me?
 * Yeah, I don't feel like being an Admin or a regular contributor. This is not cause for perma-ban. This does not mean I am not allowed to dislike your behavior.
 * My criticism of you was that you needed to stop insulting people and perma-banning them on the first edit. The Admins agreed with that. I have no idea what you're referring to.
 * Even if the other Admins don't agree with you and keep me here, I don't know if I'll stay. You'll just sit there, biding your time, waiting for me to slip up or plotting some other way to get back at me for reporting you to Wiki Central. DRAEVAN13  22:13, December 18, 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes, QB went through my past comments, my mistake on that....but, you're the one camping on my contributions page to point out "he's being moody again!" Ack.


 * ...If anything, given your lack of other contributions, you're the one who has been carefully analyzing Admin behavior and biding your time to make yet another mountain out of a molehill. "Bide my time"? I'm in no position to take unilateral action, which is why I put it to Werthead and the other Admins. You are the one "biding time" between what is it? The fourth or fifth attempt at "cracking down on Power Mad Admins?" I don't want to wait for the sixth. --The Dragon Demands (talk) 22:36, December 18, 2013 (UTC)


 * No, I've never "camped out on your contributions page". All I have to do it look at your  "heads, spikes, walls" section, which you so casually display. Once. Also, it shows on the "Recent Activity" section.
 * For the millionth time, I am not criticising the Admins. I am not "cracking down on Admins". I am not analysing the Admins. Only you and how you act. And if you actually did what you keep saying you're going to do and stop insulting people, I wouldn't have to bring it up again, would I? DRAEVAN13  22:54, December 18, 2013 (UTC)

Other than being critical of Admins or wiki policy - if that isn't the sole limit of your activities on here - by all means please tell me what else you've been up to in the past six months.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 22:58, December 18, 2013 (UTC)

I haven't been making a lot of edits, I know full well. Please explain why this means I have no right to an opinion on you insulting people and that you have the right to perma ban me for speaking out against you, for which, for the millionth time, the other Admins agreed with me. DRAEVAN13 23:12, December 18, 2013 (UTC)

Well, I didn't want to drag him into this again, but what Gonzalo84 said on your own Talk page a little white ago seems relevant:


 * Draevan, this wiki wasn't running as smoothly as you think. We had few regular contributors since the beggining and, on top of that, we had to deal with editors that actually damaged the wiki, even before the whole CestWhat fiasco. Temporary bans exist for a reason: to warn users and quickly prevent them from further damaging articles, specially when these users go on edit rampages. We are still behind schedule when it comes with updating articles, and since we are in-between seasons the influx of contributions is low. Despite his overzealouness the Dragon has made an thorough job. And we've had some disagreements, its natural and necessary. My advice to you Draevan, please drop it and focus on improving the site.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 02:18, November 27, 2013 (UTC)

And as you were making petty demands of the Admins about the 2012 video game, it occurred to me to check your contributions tab, and the thought occurred that you don't contribute that much - which you agree on. Though you are on a regular basis criticizing Admin decisions or policy that you simply aren't taking part in. You're only seeing things on a surface level, as Gonzalo84's post points out. But I also realized that you're never going to stop - you're going to keep criticizing or forwarding criticisms to Wikia until it gets out of hand. You're disproportionately eating up time and resources, and the "hypocrisy" is that you aren't contributing enough to fairly judge what's going on...even openly stated that you aren't regularly editing. You're editing so rarely that Gonzalo84 had to point out that you seem to have underestimated just how many vandal attacks we were even having....whether or not we get any results seems to be irrelevant. You're just waiting around to criticize admin actions.

In short, you have a pretty good view from behind your desk.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 00:06, December 19, 2013 (UTC)

Making petty demands? Are you for real? I had a question about the canon policy for the game. The name of the blog is in of itself the question, for Christ's sake.

"Why is the 2012 RPG not considered canon on this site?"

not

"We should absolutely change the Wiki's policy on the games!"

I simply had a question. If you're going to jump at my throat, I won't ask any questions anymore. You're unbelievable, seriously.

And since you like posting what the other Admins posted, allow me to post a few things:

1) I think the bottom line here is that there needs to be greater communication between users and admins (something we would all benefit from). Draevan, your concerns are perfectly valid, and you deserve to have them addressed in a serious manner without being handed the same Simpsons reference. At the same time you need to bear in mind that the daily running/management of this massive site falls on the shoulders of five people, and I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that the Dragon does the vast majority of this. So, yes, tempers do flare (especially when a season of the show is running) and heads do roll as a result of this; sometimes deservedly... sometimes not... I think a little more patience from all parties would be a good thing (and I count myself in this).

And Dragon, you must bear in mind that violating the terms of use in the way that you have (Tia Serena) is a serious matter; not just for you, but for the whole community. Yes, Wikia can strip you of your admin status, but it reflects badly on us as a whole, and discourages people from editing here.

I think I've said enough.

Peace out!-- 10:32, August 16, 2013 (UTC)

2) TDD, it should come NO surprise to you that you do have a problem with your brashness and attitude toward others. I read above how you said something to the effect of, why should I be nice, when people scam or troll. To answer that, those people are idiots, indeed, BUT we need to rise above it as admins...block them, and simply move on. Others can read what you write "Heads on a Pike" "Punch them in the Face", etc. Threatening is NO way to act as an admin, regardless how much they may piss you off. That is just how Admin's are supposed to be, let it roll off your back and move on. You take it all too personal. Also, as you know, this isn't the first time, or even the second you've been spoken to about this matter. I will admit you became calmer, but recently I saw you blocking someone and also mentioning you would punch them in the face. It was a simple error the "new user" wrote as well. They may seem idiotic and out to annoy you, but chances are they are just new and have no clue what they are doing. I have been in chat (private messages), messaged on other pages about you, emailed, etc for the past year it seems. It just drags on and on, that is why I had to finally speak to Wikia and get their say. The poll is the only logical step, seeing as talking to you about the threatening and bullying isn't working. Like I said, it's done...so lets just see what happens next. QueenBuffy 21:24, November 27, 2013 (UTC

3) First of all, I haven't received any private communications whatsoever. My userpage only links to my twitter account and only once a user has talked to me through that way for an unrelated matter.

Second, Queen has been enforcing policy. She has beat me in undoing vandalism and blocking trolls. Hell, she was even the one who dealt with LovelyChrys crap. And like any of us, she has every right to take breaks. And its not like Opark who has pretty much left.

I offer a solution and I hope this will keep everyone satisfied: 4) Dragon Demands is a valued, committed member of the team who has undertaken a vast amount of the trivial, tedious but necessary workload to make the wiki function. He has also dealt with some very annoying and extremely virulent trolls who have attacked the wiki repeatedly.
 * As usual, enforce permabans on trolls or users that REPEATEDLY disregard wiki policies. Employ tempbans to enforce warnings.
 * Let's keep a cool and respectful language.
 * AND LET'S NOT TAKE THIS PERSONAL, PLEASE.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 23:43, November 27, 2013 (UTC)

However, I agree he can also be overly-zealous on occasion in handing out bans. I agree we require a more thorough moderation policy, and opening up discussions on handing out bans for users who are generally well-intentioned but perhaps failing in single areas would be a good idea. I do think we need to retain the power for admins to insta-ban trolls and spammers.

Demoting admins is something that should be treated as a matter of last resort, and in the case of by far our most active member who requires admin rights to deal with certain pages and templates would be problematic. This should only be done if the DD's actions become truly unacceptable and damage the operation of the wiki. I do not believe we are at that point yet, though the situation obviously bears watching.--Werthead (talk) 15:02, December 1, 2013 (UTC)

I could go on, but I think I've made my point. The Admins and the Founder himself agreed with my points about your attitude. Thus, it is NOT "harrassing all the Admins" if I raise a valid point regarding your attitude and they agree you need to stop.

"You have a good view from behind your desk"

I'm entitled to my opinion, thanks. And since the Admins agreed with me, hell, someone from Wiki Central contacted you AND TOLD YOU TO STOP, clearly I'm not wrong.

But that's why you're doing this, after all. Petty payback.

DRAEVAN13 00:21, December 19, 2013 (UTC)


 * Not petty payback. As I said: reading through your comments that you don't consider yourself a regular editor, do not want to be a regular editor, yet the sheer amount of time you've spent obsessing over Admin decisions on a daily basis, leads me to think that you're only coming on here due to a chip on your shoulder about "Power Mad Admins", and sooner or later you're going to find some other excuse to harass about. Better to get this done early. But note how you changed the subject from the point I raised: you've contributed so little to the actual writing of wiki articles, simply camping out on blog or talk pages to criticize the work of others, that you cannot fairly assess Admin decisions. What really got me was the video game questions - even when bluntly told "this isn't canon" you insisted it was - even when Admins directly explained why it could not be canon, you continued to argue against them. This was not a simple line of inquiry, it was an accusation.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 00:32, December 19, 2013 (UTC)


 * 1) Not criticising others: YOU, because YOU keep saying you'll change them you turn around and do the same thing. Again, 4-5 times is not "Always", stop being such a drama queen. It's really dumb.
 * 2) Really? I insisted it was canon? Please, show me where in the blog I said this.
 * Let me save you the trouble: I never did. I was asking a question. No more.
 * The fact you keep making up things I never actually said or did really goes on to prove you're just trying to perma-ban me out of spite for reporting you. You can't ban the Admins that reported you, so you take it out on me. It's very sad and very petty of you to do this.
 * At any rate, I hope the other Admins come and check on this soon as we're getting nowhere. DRAEVAN13  00:41, December 19, 2013 (UTC)


 * Well, First and foremost Draevan hasn't done anything to warrant a block of any duration, let alone a permanent ban. Secondly I'd just like to point out how utterly shitty it looks to come onto this wiki and see nothing but an endless back and forth between the two of you. It's literally taken over the recent changes page, and it's the first thing that new users see when they come on here. I think you should both bear that in mind.


 * While users should strive to contribute to articles more than blogs/talk-pages not everyone can get online as much as they'd like (me included), as I said during the last episode of this... whatever you'd call it! I haven't checked, but I don't think Draevan's blog comments have overtaken his article edits. If they had that may be a cause for a warning, but otherwise... and Draeven, you should consider yourself a member of this community because I do, and I'm sure most others on here do as well. And it's perfectly acceptable to not want to be an administrator; there's absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to be a normal editor.


 * This needs to stop. Dragon; Wikia have twice asked us to vote on your admin rights. Wikia, not Draevan. I feel the need to emphasize this considering you think that Draevan "doesn't understand the chain of command on a wiki". Do you? There are no scapegoats here. Your past behaviour has been unacceptable and that is why we're in this current predicament. Sorry to be so blunt, but I can't see any other way to end this. Enough is enough.-- 12:34, December 19, 2013 (UTC)


 * Sorry about taking over the recent changes page, but I refuse to simply lay back and be slandered by him like I'm some common criminal, to sit here and let him post his list of excuses that can't conceal the fact he's only doing this to get back at me for reporting him to Wiki Central last month. But luckily Werthead has weighed in and informed Dragon there's no ground for any punishment since I have done nothing wrong.  DRAEVAN13 14:23, December 19, 2013 (UTC)

We shouldn't be banning anyone on the basis of whether they contribute to the wiki substantially or just take part in discussions. We have plenty of people who only take part in the blogs and discussions and that's fine. Questioning wiki policy on canon and so on is also fine: we should always be open to re-evaluations of decisions. Banning should only be a serious option if he is seriously trolling the site, outright flaunting policy and making unacceptable edits etc. Draevan is not doing that at the moment.--Werthead (talk) 12:11, December 19, 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, Werthead. DRAEVAN13 14:17, December 19, 2013 (UTC)


 * Okay then.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 14:39, December 19, 2013 (UTC)

Deceased character infobox information
When relatives are listed for a character in an infobox, should we put the name in brackets, or list "deceased"...or both? That is:


 * {Robb Stark}
 * Robb Stark (deceased)
 * {Robb Stark} (deceased)

I'm not sure if we do both.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 01:24, December 26, 2013 (UTC)

New vs changed and renamed characters
We're not sure how to handle this: While this may be arguing semantics, that's what fans are all about. Is "Locke" a "new" character, or a significantly changed and renamed Vargo Hoat? I want to keep him under "characters significantly changed" (and he is renamed, backstory rewritten a little)...but philosophically, he's fundamentally the TV version of Vargo Hoat, albeit much condensed. In contrast, Ros or Armeca are "new" characters with no true counterpart in the books. I don't think Locke belongs in the same "new" category as Ros or Armeca (yes, Ros has one or two scenes from book characters such as Alayaya, but then again, Renly or Pycelle sometimes give dialogue that others book characters had, but condensed). The question is largely academic, but I'm hesitant to call characters "significantly changed" unless GRRM himself has said he feels so -- while Elio & Linda of Westeros.org have said they didn't think the change from Vargo to Locke was particularly drastic - a large condensation of the Brave Companions, but not outright "invented" and alien to the story.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 14:34, December 27, 2013 (UTC)

Just to make a list:


 * Alton Lannister: "canon foreigner" or Cleos Frey undergoing the same process Hoat/Locke did?
 * Petyr Baelish: GRRM has states the show version has been significantly changed from the novel one. Can Varys be consideres to have undergone similar changes? Downplaying his effeminacy and doing a move so overt as approaching Lady Olenna himself.
 * Brienne has also undergone significant changes: from the idealist who has never killed a man to the more savvy and sour warrior from the show who is capable of killing in self-defense and noticing the Karstarks will kill Jaime despite him being their King's hostage.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 15:39, December 27, 2013 (UTC)

I see "new" as "has no real book counterpart", while "Alton Lannister" is more closely a condensed and renamed version of Cleos Frey (similar to Locke/Vargo).

I don't think Varys is very different...indeed, Martin has actually said that Conleth Hill is one of the actors who most closely matched his vision of what the book character was like - what do you mean downplayed his effeminacy? He did that in Season 1...he hasn't been doing the "public act" as much in Season 3, but simply because by this point the audience knows its an act and they're showing us the "real" Varys more (i.e. Tyrion saw through Varys's act so he stopped doing it in scenes with him).

To be honest the whole "Characters significantly changed" list was just a long blog post I made at first, but then I sort of realized it might be useful - plus I found this GRRM interview from Worldcon, so I thought it looked "professional" if backed by GRRM quotes. I try to use it sparingly.

Brienne was more of a subtle change.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 17:20, December 27, 2013 (UTC)

The White Walker in "Winter is Coming"
I have just realized We have two articles with the exact same information except the actor's name (White Walker 1 and White Walker 2)... Isn't this a case of two actors playing the same character? Even the article's image is the same--Gonzalo84 (talk) 04:53, January 9, 2014 (UTC)

Bolton family tree
The House Bolton family tree is not displaying properly, I'm not sure why: --The Dragon Demands (talk) 17:36, January 16, 2014 (UTC)


 * Same thing is happening with Template:House Greyjoy family tree.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 17:41, January 16, 2014 (UTC)


 * Apparently it was a wikia-wide problem, I've seen it even on Wikipedia prime itself.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 02:52, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

Inside Game of Thrones
They're going to produce a sequel book to Inside HBO's Game of Thrones (which covered Seasons 1 and 2), written by Bryan Cogman's assistant Cat Taylor. The sequel is titled: Inside Game of Thrones: Seasons 3 & 4. It's due by Christmas 2014.

This is great news that they're doing another one, but how should we differentiate their titles? Should we retroactively call the first "Inside Game of Thrones: Seasons 1 & 2" -- or "Inside Game of Thrones (Seasons 1 & 2)"?

Or, should we stick to calling it "Inside Game of Thrones"?

Maybe HBO itself will start retroactively calling it "Seasons 1 & 2", we'll need to check.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 02:52, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

Recap Video
Hey man, Remember this video-->http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Season_1#Video_recap It's done very well. Was thinking I would do another recapping Season 3 to help promote S4. Unless there's another type of video you'd prefer. Lemme know. Peter 17:40, February 14, 2014 (UTC)

Analysis
Actually, I wrote this: http://io9.com/excellent-analysis-saved-for-future-reference-1523441715

I take sort of grim satisfaction that in this post-finale Q&A, the first uncensored Q&A Ron Moore did in two years or ever would again really, I got in a lot of hardcutting questions...more accusations: http://www.mediablvd.com/MBmagazine/index.php/all-celebrity/3202-ron-moore-answers-tough-questions-about-bsgs-final-season.html

Dear God I used to worship that man. I used to be a columnist for my university's weekly magazine back when I was an undergrad, devoted a two page spread to BSG and praising Moore. I was a fanatic among fanatics. Then Season 3 hit and I gradually realized it was all a sham - there were cracks visible in Season 2.5, we all should have realized it, but we were blinded in our disgusting adoration of the man. Analogy: it felt like the "Cult of G'Kar" from the end of Babylon 5, where he points out that his new followers are idiots who just carry around G'Kar figurines and pour whatever positive messages they want into it -- i.e. they didn't actually read his book. Specifically, that many of his new fanatics are raving "yeah, G'Kar wants the Narn to become a strong military power again so other races can't push us around!" - when he had an ANTI-Nationalist message, pro-cooperation with other races. They just saw what they wanted to see.

I even personally met the guy once, back at Paley Center 2006 (I'm the moron in the video who asked about if Season 3 would keep all of the intricate plots while still making the show accessible to new people -- he basically lied to my face. AT THE TIME he knew damn well that scifi channel ordered him to drop the running plotlines.

But my proudest one which I'm shocked he even answered is question 24, directly asking: there was never a Cylon Plan, David Eick came up with the idea to say that in the credits as a plot gimmick and he went along with it. His answer, as always at the time, was "well, the Plan TV movie in six months will answer your questions" -- he was washing his hands of responsibility. I ask, who does that? Films a TV movie showing the antagonist point of view, then doesn't air it but leaves it in the can as the finale airs, then waits a full six months to air it?

It was their way of saying "no backsies!" -- their way to deflect ANY question about the plot holes or simple lack of explanation for anything in the finale. You see the red carpet interviews at the time? ANY time someone asked "but what about the Cylon Plan?" he wouldn't even fess up that there wasn't a real one....he'd routinely say "well, if the finale didn't answer all of your questions, there's this TV movie in six months".....the *focus of the world* was on the BSG finale at the time, like the Breaking Bad finale or something. The best possible choice was to quietly release a TV movie months later long after the focus had dropped away.

The man has no artistic integrity or even author loyalty - did you hear my explanation of how Caprica was a wreck? Developed with so little time that they just cut and past BSG elements into a script for an unrelated TV show? Then realized that....well, their routine tactic at this point: pretend that this is what we actually wanted to do, so people won't yell at us. Bluffing their way through it. But Ron himself knew it was a trainwreck waiting to happen -- so Jane Espenson, who he promoted in the second half of the show as his personal protege of sorts? Who when the show was going to hell was a complete Yes Man to him no matter how ridiculous his ideas became? (Because unlike Toni and Carla, she wasn't there from the beginning, but was just happy to be hired onto the "best show ever").....Ron's last big personal fan? He then threw Jane under the bus! He new Caprica would be a wreck so he suddenly left HIS OWN PREQUEL and put her in charge.....knowing that as a result, she would get the blame, while his prestige would remain untarnished. There's this sad Comic Con video from a few years back on youtube in which Espenson, almost on the verge of tears and clearly upset, explains that she was told that being made head writer on Caprica was a big promotion, but she soon realized that it was actually Ron dumping an unwanted and impossible project on her to distance himself from it.

I don't know if British fans know the airing schedule as much but also a major factor is that they simply could not keep making 20 episode seasons: they said as much in Season 2.5 that "Black Market" (and to an extent, "Sacrifice") happened because they expanded from 13 to 20 episode seasons, even with a four month gap in the middle of season 2. Their response? Air Season 3 continuously (with only a one month Christmas break) resulting in the worst season they ever produced which drove away many fans who never returned (even Season 4 at least had internal consistency, but with wacky quick-fix ideas it inherited from the Season 3 finale).

It's crazy; the whole reason the show existed was as a *prestige* show meant to earn awards, they even said as much when people pointed out that the ratings weren't enough to pay for the show (Scifi was intentionally making it at a loss so people would respect their channel more...for a while it did).

Prestige shows like HBO stuff...the Sopranos, True Blood....those shows only make 10 episode Seasons. The Game of Thrones producers split book 3 in half because they knew that to make a 20 episode season would be a massive drop in quality -- DIRECT COMPARISON there.

So what did they do in season 3? Use tactics meant to boost ratings, not prestige. Such as "let's drop the running storylines and make a season of standalones to hook new viewers" -- did Sopranos ever do that? Or "let's air both 10 episode "halves" back to back, to hook viewers because we lost some in the gap between season halves"....the reason was that "3.5" was truly, disturbingly, slapped together at the last minute...to an extent that words fail to convey.

Worst of all was Ron himself though; he fell back into gimmick tactics such as Comic Book Deaths or Pick The Murderer/Spy/Cylon Based on Shock Value Instead of Plot Logic.....tactics which are meant to boost *ratings*, not artistic prestige. These are the stereotypical cheap tactics that Soap Operas or comic books do...not planned out drama that wins Emmys. And he wasn't winning those Emmys for Scifi....so they refused to give him a season 5 pickup.

Truly, I think Ron saw himself as a visionary by this point and....remember when he dramatically marched into the SyFy Channel offices after Season 3 ended, to bravely negotiate for TWO more seasons, not one? I think Ron thought there were basically two options: 1 - Get two more seasons, indefinitely postponing the need to actually explain any of the storylines (and hey, maybe he could push it to seven seasons by getting an extension season after season), or 2 - dramatically become the next martyr of science fiction like Joss Whedon's Firefly by Scifi cruelly cancelling his show then and there.

Remember how much he hyped that the Season 4 mid-season finale with Cylon-Earth COULD have been the final episode if Scifi cancelled them? He was constructing his own myth! "The poor writer shut down by the network" -- I think even the network started to wise up that Ron didn't plan out *any* of the show. If he HAD, they could have bounced back from a season of standalones as Farscape did in Peacekeeper Wars...which simply followed the PLANNED plot of "Season 5".

But that's not what happened: he didn't get to extend the show indefinitely with a two year renewal, nor was he made a martyr with a dramatic cancellation: they gave him a full 20 episode season to definitely wrap it up, consciously ordering him that it was the final season. This was entirely fair, didn't make him a martyr: 20 episodes is a long enough time to finish things.

Which is why Season 4.5 was such a godawful mess....even 4.0 was still "playing for time" because up until the mid-season break they thought they'd be renewed into season 5. Now, Ron's back was against the wall and he actually had to come up with implausible answers to things....i.e. "how can Tyrol of all people possibly be a Cylon when he has a son, and your one cardinal rule about Cylons is that they're sterile?" or, rarely, have a hybrid child? "well, I guess his wife must have had an affair off-screen with a character she never interacted with before" -- in the DVD commentary, Ron outright admitted that *since the Season 3 finale itself*, Q&A regularly came up with this logical question -- how could Tyrol be a Cylon? It's so implausible...unless doesn't this mean his son has to be a second Hybrid? And he admitted in the DVD commentary that he would just say "yes, he's a Hybrid" as a way to shut people up, because he simply didn't want to deal with them criticizing him for it for the rest of the series run...two years later, of course, he put off giving this retcon until four episodes before the finale....much like "The Plan" TV movie, his strategy being that if he pushed his retcons or admissions of failure until the last possible point, no one would be talking about BSG in magazines and internet review sites in six months, so he wouldn't be criticized for long! Ugh.

If you haven't, listen to the alternate DVD commentary for the Season 3 finale...the one filmed at a fan party. Ron simply stopped doing Q&A on his blog or anywhere by season 3 and began to live in a bubble without criticism....it reminds me of the Ninth Doctor, "Boom Town", when he explains the "bait the dog" principle: the alien says she spared someone, and he just bluntly says "I believe you - it's how people like you live with themselves for all the bad things they do. Ever now and again you randomly spare someone or make a small kindness to someone; it makes you feel better." --- To still feel praised, Ron would drop in to random fan viewing parties now and again and such, and the fans were so in awe of "omg Ron Moore" that they didn't really notice all of these massive problems in the show.

So the funny thing is that the fan party commentary track for the Season 3 finale, Ron is sitting there ranting about how great he is - he *actually* starts going on about how "on Next Generation we didn't develop the secondary characters so like, Geordi's backstory was just frantically slapped together in season 7. In contrast, I think we did a great job of setting up each character in the first two seasons of BSG, so it can run for another five years!" -- while, and the contrast is absurd, these fans are naively asking him obvious questions about the absurd plot revelations in the finale, assuming he has some rational explanation for it -- and Ron...sort of sounds mildly surprised that they're asking these entirely obvious questions about major plot holes. Did he even think of them beforehand, or was he just embarrassed? Maybe a little of both.

So there's one actual point when a fan in the podcast asks "wait, if Tyrol is a Cylon, doesn't this mean his son is a Hybrid?" and he says "yeah...." Ugh. The whole things shows just how out of touch he became - do you know that he even casually mentions that he's so "busy" i.e. frantically rewriting episodes before the deadline, that he didn't even see the finished episodes most of the time?! He'd be openly surprised when scenes that were deleted, never filmed, or never even formally scripted didn't make it to air.

But you've seen this: I love the Wertzone's point that "listening to the DVD commentaries, in Season 2 Ron has all of this sagely advice about writing, but as Season 3 progresses the same man turns into a bizarre impulsive parody of his former self, explaining that he threw in random and major plot changes "because it was cool" with zero thought as to how it would turn out later.

And of course, you've seen his damning Paley Center 2009 panel video made right after the finale? It's on youtube.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 15:30, February 15, 2014 (UTC)

One day, I hope we get tell-all interviews from writers who left the show, similar to these ones about LucasArts: http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2014/02/12/fall-of-the-empire-how-inner-turmoil-brought-down-a-legendary-studio.aspx

I suspect that's what happened, with Moore as Ward, gradually losing touch - ordering the impossible (rewrite that entire episode in a single day) and his staffers were such spineless Yes Men that he didn't realize they were just telling him what he wanted to hear....if they told him how bad it actually was, how impossible his increasingly outlandish goals were becoming, they'd get yelled at. A culture of denial.

Yet even I openly wonder: did writers such as Graphia and Robinson legitimately have an entirely pleasant experience working with Ron, and leave under amicable circumstances? Entirely possible....but that just underscores how weird it was that *nothing* was mentioned about their departure, no "fond and farewell" -- if only because he knew that announcing that so many staff writers left (even for legitimate, amicable reasons) was an embarrassment...fans would fear - ENTIRELY CORRECTLY - that the female writers leaving meant they couldn't write the female characters well anymore (again, Moore later admitted that Graphia and Robinson did all of the writing for Roslin).

So am I just making mad conspiracy theories? I don't know, that's the point: there was no transparency but it's shrouded in mystery. Hey, maybe I'm wrong, maybe the other writers honestly thought Ron was a genius up until they left, and left purely for money reasons. It didn't necessarily need to be yelling, impossible demands, and shouting - maybe they ALL collectively deluded themselves into thinking the situation was under control, and Ron was actually a beacon of hope amidst the chaos....then again, the only person who can be blamed for *not thinking out the specific motivations of the primary antagonists*....was Ron himself. But he refuses to take any responsibility.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 21:32, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Mace Tyrell
This does not inspire confidence, ser: http://www.dawn.com/news/1087269/kings-landing-comes-to-karachi --The Dragon Demands (talk) 21:12, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

scripts and Dothraki dialog
Over at South Park wiki they have articles with every episodes script (example: and they are highly useful for anyone who wants to figure out what Kenny says.  I'm on a series rewatch and have been using the Dothraki wiki to get translations of Dothraki dialog but I have found it is incomplete. Season 2 episode 5 (The Ghost of Harrenhal) has a long interchange about the golden peacock they wanted to dice up and take to sell. Well, as I was writing this, an internet search turned up this blog by David Peterson  where he translated that episode's Dothraki but it never made it into their wiki. I'm signed up over there; maybe I'll do that.

Anyway, the scripts pages from South Park is a nice idea; do you have sources for GoT that could be thrown up here? It looks like the source of SP scripts is coming from spscriptorium.com by the dedicated transcriber Willie Westwood (WillieWestwood@hotmail.com). Alatari (talk) 18:59, March 3, 2014 (UTC)


 * There are no formal script sources that we know of.


 * When we are unclear about the exact wording of a sentence, we go by what the HBO Go subtitles say.


 * We are aware of the Dothraki.org Wiki - developed partially in collaboration with Peterson himself - as a resource for Dothraki and Valyrian. I have been hesitant to simply copy-paste from it because I think they'd be annoyed that we're simply copying work they labored long over, but I have been using it as a fact-check for some of the more important terms.


 * Side note: even Peterson pointed this out, but among the book fans, if there's one "foreign language" to get excited about, it's Valyrian...not Dothraki. As you've seen, Dothraki was only really important in book/season 1, and in subsequent books (Seasons 2 and 3) drops off to being practically non-existent. In contrast, Valyrian is the language of both the Free Cities and Slaver's Bay, where Daenerys's storyline stays for a long time. So the joke Peterson wryly pointed out is that before the show premiered, book fans didn't really care that he was developing Dothraki....but all of the TV-first fans and entertainment media jumped on the novelty of "wow, they've got their own internal language, Dothraki!".....then almost ignored the officially more important language, Valyrian.


 * In short, Dothraki is not to Game of Thrones as Klingon is to Star Trek. Valyrian is to Game of Thrones as Klingon is to Star Trek. Dothraki is like...the Game of Thrones equivalent of the Romulan language or something - it pops up from time to time but it isn't as prominent in the storyline.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 21:36, March 3, 2014 (UTC)


 * Thankyou for your opinion, Dragon Demands.  For viewers of only the television series, Dothraki an is important language and is present in most every episode of the first two seasons.   So you know of no sources for scripts but it is still unknown whether Werthead knows of some.   Since Valyrian dialog will be in the up coming seasons then there will be viewers wanting to see translated dialog in those seasons thus making transcripts from all the episodes a valuable addition especially if they have spoken language visible followed by the translations.  Alatari (talk) 23:48, March 3, 2014 (UTC)


 * Oh Dothraki is very important and I enjoy it as part of the show - but note how little it was used last season. Valyrian is the language of the Targaryens! Haha. But your point stands for either language.


 * I'm just pointing out that I'm an Admin here and even I have never seen links to script resources of any kind - though it would be cool if Werthead did.


 * David Peterson generally did a good job of posting updated transcripts of Dothraki or Valyrian dialogue in his weekly blog, and these usually got updated into Dothraki.org.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 23:56, March 3, 2014 (UTC)


 * Last 500 edits over at their Wiki is mostly abuse bot smack downs and 3 editors that put in some work since Jan 31st. I had to add the Dothroki language for season 2 episode 5 and am going to check on 6 tonight. I'm saying it's very dead over there. . I'd rather add the Dothraki and Valerian dialog per episode here. Alatari (talk) 17:51, March 11, 2014 (UTC)

Bryan Cogman has returned to Twitter
Bryan Cogman has returned to Twitter: https://twitter.com/b_cogman

As the trusted founder of Game of Thrones Wiki and respected twitter-verse commentator via the Wertzone blog, can you attempt to bring The Cargo Cult to Mr. Cogman's attention?

(I know it is informal, I added many questions on an ad hoc basis because I had no idea how long they would go unanswered; as an organic process, I just realized it was better to keep an ongoing "list of questions even the Admins aren't sure about and would ask the writers if given a chance, to clarify the situation". And if any of the questions were too sloppy or badly worded I assumed you'd edit them down.)--The Dragon Demands (talk) 20:44, March 5, 2014 (UTC)

Family Tree templates
The family tree templates are acting weird across the entire wikia network, even wikipedia.org itself; I'm not sure what's going on, but I'm increasingly concerned that it needs to be fixed by the Season 4 premiere. Can you ask the Wikia Bureaucrats about this?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 00:36, March 11, 2014 (UTC)

Octavia Alexandru
This requires your attention: http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:Selenaoctaviaalexandru --The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:27, March 13, 2014 (UTC)

Apology and Explanation
I was behind these past few months due to my thesis, which was very frustrating work; I finally finished a few weeks ago and I've been catching up ever since on the edits and fixes made when I couldn't devote full attention to the wiki. Thankfully, just in time for the Season 4 premiere. Though there are larger ongoing tasks I didn't get to (a complete rewatch from the beginning of Season 1...)

Anyway, I feel I need to apologize to some of you on here and provide an explanation I was reluctant to reveal:

As you may remember, I was getting really irritable late last fall, Draevan13 pointed out this bad behavior, and there was a vote over whether my Admin rights should be taken away (which I survived). Then in a fog of frustration I demanded that Draevan13 be banned (which didn't happen). Also I'm really upset, in hindsight, at how acerbic I was towards QueenBuffy during the vote over my Admin rights.

Well I apologize, but the explanation is this: due to my panic about the massive task of working on my thesis (the culmination of three years of work)...around last September I intentionally stopped taking my prescribed anti-depressants.

I grew afraid that they were making me too bleary to devote my full concentration on the problems in my thesis. And arguably they were, but the price of renewed focus was mounting agitation at minor things, until I was practically going nuclear. The way anti-depressants work, for that matter, isn't just like turning on or off a light switch: it takes days or weeks for the levels to gradually increase or decrease in your body, depending on how much you take. Last September I quit cold turkey, with no attempt to wean myself off gradually (even that have eventually left me agitated)....the result being that more and more left my system as weeks and months passed, until by November-December I was ready to explode.

So when I was acting so irrationally and filled with rage this past fall, it was because I was medically in an unfit mental condition to edit. Combined with the extreme stress of a thesis deadline. That's not me. Frankly, given how much I was exploding in real life as a result, I am surprise I even maintained as much restraint as I did on here.

I've sporadically stopped taking them at past times (which probably led to some of my prior, lesser outbursts) but never for as long as four months.

As to why I have been taking prescribed anti-depressants for some years? Well, watching my medically diagnosed psychopath father repeatedly beating my mother to a pulp in front of me when I was a toddler did not exactly leave me with a cheery disposition.

At any rate by Christmas Break I was with my family and I was having random grumpy outbursts about the thesis (plus being four months off anti-depressants I was kind of nuts). They realized I had obviously stopped taking them (I didn't tell them because they'd have tried to stop me and force me to take them). But they instead begged that I wasn't acting like myself and to start taking them again. Sort of a moot point because by then my thesis was mostly finished. So I started taking anti-depressants again, and while I don't have quite the same level of extreme focus anymore, at this point I was just copy-editing and tidying it up, so the heavy work was behind me anyway.

The irony...it's like Nash in A Beautiful Mind when he keeps trying to stop taking his medication because he can barely focus when he's on them. When I'm off the antidepressants my mental focus is incredible, but it leads me to becoming irrationally frustrated, angry or depressed at seemingly minor things. Brilliance and madness, both halves of the same coin, a crazed father as family legacy, living on the sufferance of others after...ever wonder why I'm such a hardcore Daenerys Targaryen fan?

So at this point, I've been taking anti-depressants again for three months and have no intention of ever stopping. I hope you feel that my behavior has been more "rational" these past three months and more befitting of a Wiki Administrator.

I hope you appreciate that I am deeply humiliated by revealing this private information, however, I realized that objectively, you guys would have no idea why the heck I was lashing out like that last Fall, so I think I really needed to provide you with the explanation that I was medically not fit to edit at the time because I stopped taking anti-depressants.

I look forward to working with you all in Season 4.

(Please delete this comment once you are finished reading it and respond on my talk page if you choose; I don't want it showing up in Google search).--The Dragon Demands (talk) 22:37, April 6, 2014 (UTC)

Benioff & Weiss projects
Rereading it my description of seasons 7-9 possibilities was very sprawling, I need to rewrite it extensively; I threw it up there in a big rush to at least have it in before the finale. Now it's on the to-do list but I had a language test this week so I wasn't able to edit the season 4 premiere stuff extensively either...

Anyway, what does this new Benioff & Weiss project say about Thrones's future? -- http://www.deadline.com/2014/04/game-of-thrones-david-benioff-d-b-weiss-plan-dirty-white-boys-as-first-feature/

Even if there are only three more seasons after this, I find it hard to imagine that they'd sign up to make such a film three years in advance....so are they filming it during the Game of Thrones off-season, or what?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 19:00, April 11, 2014 (UTC)