User talk:Adrianacandle

Welcome
Hi, welcome to ! Thanks for your edit to the Jon Snow page.

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Enjoy your editing and please leave a message on my talk page if I can help with anything! Ragestorm (talk) 00:05, August 8, 2016 (UTC)

I am painfully aware that the Jon Snow article needs touching up, as do frankly most of them. At the moment I'm sorting through the new batch of Histories & Lore videos. Over Christmas break I'm going to implement that triage system I mentioned in the forum to deal with our most popular articles by pagecount (Jon Snow, Tyrion, Daenerys, etc. etc.). Everything's on the "To Do" list, ack. Thank you for your cleanup efforts.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 01:01, November 29, 2016 (UTC)

HighComs
Hi there, thanks for the message.

As you can tell from my edits, I am interested in tackling one of the most controversial areas of the show: what made Dany snap - so I do expect other people to get involved for the betterment of the wiki. The section on her relationship with Jon was incomplete - it hadn't included the developments which had taken place since their finding out the secret of Jon's identity. (I guess people are daunted by this information, but someone had to start to lay out the framework for how their relationship has progressed, so I started the process).

I need to look at some of the earlier episodes to track the exact progression, but I think it is obvious that Jon has changed his feelings about Dany and is deeply conflicted: he loves her, but she is his aunt, so he shouldn't love her. This doesn't matter to Dany, and so she just has to accept it. But this is difficult for her, as she loves him, as she made clear to Sansa.

The reason why I brought up marriage as a possibility (which I think you agree is an important consideration) is that I believe her words on screen and response to Jon's actions towards her reveal her intentions. Allow me to explain how I see the psychological unfoldment of her intent on screen: Anyway, that explains my thinking (for the most part!) If there are points of agreement, we can work towards a clearer and more accurate picture of their relationship - obviously a lot hinges on tomorrow's finale, and I will be keen to update the entry after then, as well as to try and make more sense of the timing of their relationship. (I have yet to examine the Jon/Dany page yet, but I'm sure there will be a lot of crossover there).
 * She is upset that Jon has the love of the people. She wants that more than anything - that has been her "redemptive" streak, trying to free people, be a liberator, breaker of chains etc. Jon tries to compensate/placate her by saying that he loves her. She approaches for a moment of intimacy and Jon just doesn't reciporocate - he hasn't been inclined since he found out the secret of of identity. (They haven't been intimate on camera since their arrival in Winterfell).
 * My opinion - and I suppose it may only be an interpretation - is that when she says "is that all I am to you, your queen?" this is an obvious sign that she wants more (not the word "all"). I infer from this that she wants a companion. (Refer back to the line "a Targaryen alone in the world is a terrible thing". Dany has been alone for many years; she has found a lover; it doesn't matter that he is a Targaryen - all the better! It seems to me not too much of a stretch to say she wants a companion. She might not say it directly, but her words convey that intent.)
 * Logically, such a companion in their world would a king to her queen, not a subordinate. If what she wants is love/admiration of the smallfolk then logically, if she were to marry Jon, they would be a team, rather than him bending his knee to her. (He is happy with this arrangement, whilst she is not). That way, she would get the respect/love of Jon's supporters, and Jon's supporters would get the benefit of her fearful army and dragons to protect them in wars to come.
 * This is how I see her mind working: an alliance between the two is favourable, primarily as a way to ensure that Jon doesn't take over her throne (as she sees it). Secondly, it would give her the admiration that she craves. She is happy Jon renounced the throne, but distraught that she denounced her - meaning to say that she interprets his refusal to be intimate as a rejection of her, and of her love for him. This was a wrong move on Jon's part (just look how she reacted next) and is the source of the tragedy for the show. It will not end well, because of this fateful decision on Jon's part. She is destined to be a tragic failure, when everyone wanted her to be the heroic victor. (This remains to be seen, but is how I read into it).

I haven't read the books (yet) and as I understand it, the show has diverged at this point. Rest assured, I have no interest in sabotaging the page: I only want to get an accurate representation of what is said on screen, as well as what can be inferred as motive from the very few lines of dialogue that they actually exchange. Alas, if we do not permit ourselvs to make inferences, there is very little to be said about their relationship at this late stage based on the words they exchange: iIf you look at the dialogue between them in the last few episodes, it doesn't add up to much, so we are forced to draw inferences and read very closely into what they are saying to each other.

I will leave with this point of summary:

Targaryens intermarry - Dany may well see that as a potential solution to her dilemma. Jon is very clear in his actions (if not his words) that he no longer wants that kind of relationship (rejected the throne and her love). The inference I am making is that Dany gave Jon the choice - be with her, so that togehter they can rule with their love for each other and the people's love for them. Or be apart, and reap the consequences. Jon chose the latter, so she became resigned to fear. She gave him the choice-  she had the power. He refused it.

I could go on, but the point of this message is to clarify where I stand. I don't take your edits personally, but I do hope that you can see that what I am inferring is (hopefully) not a million miles away from the form of the show.

Apologies for the overly long note!

Thanks, and look forward to seeing you around!

HighComs (talk) 01:31, May 19, 2019 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the response! You did a nice job of filling out the season 8 recap of their relationship! As to speculation or inference of the character's thoughts and motives, I don't know if the recap sections, relationship summaries, and character pages are the right place for this because they're meant to summarize the episode/character events/relationships as presented. I think these sections largely need to be reflective of the canon as presented - especially because multiple interpretations and inferences of the same scenes can exist and will vary from viewer to viewer. However, we can ask a mod about this!


 * As to my understanding, I think this sort of speculation would belong in the Notes section of the episode's recap rather than character pages (as you added in The Bells). We can ask a mod about this, what is the best place for speculation, interpretation, and analysis -- what do you say to that?


 * As to my personal opinions, I hesitate in saying Daenerys has possibly pondered marriage because neither the character or the writers have shown she has, which I find strange because Daenerys said in 610 she needs to make marital alliances. Who better than Jon, right? Solves all her problems! But the character doesn't mention it out loud.


 * In regard to Jon, I think that interpretation of the 805 scene is tricky because Daenerys didn't exactly voice this choice to him so it's hard to say what the characters are thinking and multiple interpretations of it exist. My personal interpretation was that he loves her, he wants to reignite their romantic relationship because he does return the kiss here before breaking it off -- but he just can't. Some think it's because of the incest factor, other think it's because he's not feeling frisky after seeing a man burned alive, I think it's both (maybe more the incest thing, though, since Inside the Episode 804 brings this up as the reason why Jon stops the make-out session in 804). Nonetheless, I absolutely agree his feelings are conflicted.


 * I agree this is a contributing factor to Daenerys's decline but I don't think it is a sole motivator (I think a number of factors have contributed). Plus, Daenerys is ultimately responsible for her own choices. In retrospect, it wasn't a good move on Jon's part to tell his sisters, that's true, and he was naive in thinking Sansa would keep the secret - even after she swore. At the same time, it wasn't awesome of Dany to demand he never tell his family about who he really is for the rest of his life. I think those two could have come to some sort of compromise, ie. something like, "What about a marital union between us? Then you can tell anybody you want and nobody can pit our claims against each other!" or even just, "Wait until after I take the throne and my rule is solidified."


 * Ultimately, though, this is speculation and I think the best place for speculation would be the Notes sections of an episode's recap page but we'd have to ask a mod about that.


 * Sorry for the long message myself!


 * Adrianacandle (talk) 02:12, May 19, 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, I'm glad you appreciated my humble effort at filling out the relationship section - it is a challenge getting the relevant info in there! I will keep this short!

I suppose by "as presented" you mean verbally? I am reading into the language, and the subtext. Like when Dany says "is that all I am to you?" This implies she wants more. Is that an inaccurate interpretation in your opinion?

My opinion is, where multiple inferences can be drawn, just bulletpoint them in there, and explore the consequences/ramifications of each. Ultimately, I tidied up the relationship/marriage point to the best of my ability - incorporating your wording. Marriage was a possibility neither discussed, but was ultimately ruled out by Jon's actions... it was good to raise the inference, even if just to explore it never happening. I hope that point clears things up a bit.

As for the best place for speculations/ interpretations - there is currently no "Notes" section on the character pages. I imagine once the finale airs, and all (canon) is said and done, there will be room to add notes sections to the character pages, in order to explore their relationships fully? Ultimately, I see the character pages as collated data from the episodes - where the info is revealed - pages and then it can be digested on the individual character pages. That is how I would proceed - especially post finale...

Speculation is fine with me :) It's useful to put it on a blog page for instance. But, it terms of a competing interpretations, it's important to find a place for them, and I agree the "Notes" section is the best place. Currently, there is no "Notes" section on the individual character pages, (as I already mentioned) but I have a feeling that will change soon. Shall we ask a mod whether they agree that that is a good idea or not, before proceeding?

Final point - I heavily edited The Bells because it was unreadable when I found it. I organised the Notes by family, as that seemed to make sense. Then grouped the existing speculations before adding my own. That way, people can see the format and take what they want, or add there own. At the end of the day "possible motives" are just possibilities, but they are ultimately finite, and have a place if they are well written and argued. You will notice that my edits I try to form a thesis, or a position, and argue for it. I don't just wade in willy-nilly and make unjustified assertions. As a philosopher by training, I like to argue my case :)

Hope this finds you well, and we can contiune to work together on these things. At the moment, I am confining myself to the bleeding edge as the show draws to a close, and am interested in the Jon/Dany dynamic the most.

Cheers from the UK!

HighComs (talk) 02:36, May 19, 2019 (UTC)