Talk:Breaker of Chains/Jaime-Cersei sex scene

I have finished writing this.

Does anyone have any comments? Disagree with anything? Please leave feedback.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 06:43, April 7, 2015 (UTC)

Not quite sure how you managed to write a small novel out of 2 minutes of material, but I commend you on doing so! I agree mostly with you on the points you addressed, but I don't think I blame Graves as much as you. Granted, I do think he was at fault, but I see it as a simple mistake/misinterpretation on his behalf that for whatever reason was not rectified.

All the contradictions to me seem like a bunch of people with different ideas/views giving their take on it, and some of those people afterwards were told a different story or decided they were wrong before, so they publicly tell a different story. All the while it seems nobody wanted to outright say "it was his fault" or in Graves' case "it was my fault". Ultimately if I were Graves I'd just come out and say it was a mistake on my part (which as you point out all the evidence points to that being the case) but for whatever reason he doesn't want the finger pointed at him.

I don't think Graves is a bad director, in fact I think he is a great director in spite of this scene as a few of my favourite episodes have been directed by him (The Children, And Now His Watch is Ended, The Moutain and The Viper) and I'll just leave it as everyone makes mistakes.

I think the George Lucas effect might be taking place a bit here, meaning had success in the past so he is given full control and power in which no one wants to second guess him, Graves to a much lesser extent than Lucas, as although Graves is probably to blame for a scene in a TV show, Lucas is to blame for 3 entire movies.

Your assessment that the scene should not be regarded as a rape scene is 100% accurate in my eyes. Even if everyone who has ever worked on the show decides to come out and say it was, I will always maintain that it wasn't. I think as far as the scene is concerned, and how it was handled afterwards, lack of clarity is at fault here. - Son Of Fire (talk) 09:51, April 7, 2015 (UTC)

I would remove the comparisons between D&D's handling of the situation and Tywin's handling of Gregor's rape and murder of Elia, for a start. Other than being disproportionate, it serves no actual purpose, and (no offence) sounds pompous and self-congratulatory. You also have a habit of bolding or italicizing words, sentences, and so on when quoting other people. Obviously you do this when you feel that particular attention needs to be drawn to what's being said. However, unless the person in question is actually emphasizing what they're saying, this is dishonest, as you're sensationalizing their words, and potentially changing the context of what's being said to suit your own argument. Generally your language throughout the article is highly personal and subjective, and reads like your waging a one man war against D&D and Graves... I would seriously question if there's an actual market for this kind of article on a wiki at all. I mean, why not simply stick to the facts? The article ends with "Hopefully in the meantime audiences can put this incident behind them"... frankly you sound like the one who's having a hard time doing this, and I honestly interpreted this article as an attempt to keep the controversy alive... dare I say even... to inflame it.--The White Winged Fury 09:54, April 8, 2015 (UTC)


 * I agree. The problem is that it reads as an editorial. If TDD is inflexible in his decision that such an article is really needed, he should really consider toning down the subjectivity, following your suggestions —take out all the unnecessary and sometimes misleading italics and bolding, all the qualitative adjectives and adverbs, and the commentary —certainly take out that Tywin digression, but not only that. I can't imagine that TDD believes that things like "We can analyze this until the White Walkers take us" belong in an enyclopedia. This reads like a review or an opinion piece, not a wiki article. The text is also way too long and repetitive; even if we accepted it as the opinion piece that it is, it should be heavily trimmed down.


 * However, the major issue is the commentary —quotes are used only in order to construct a story around them, but the truth is none of us have the whole story. It's merely speculation, such as the subjective speculation on GRRM's true motives, which contradict what he actually says just to make a point, and that's just not acceptable —just because GRRM usually is and has to be diplomatic about the show doesn't mean we can assume he thinks exactly the opposite of what he says (in this case, and Tysha and Talisa as well.) Sometimes, the texts strains the meaning of the quote even further, by bolding something else entirely and ignoring the more pertinent part, such as when Benioff literally says that Jaime forces himself on Cersei, which is featured but completely ignored on the analysis, or when it is suggested that because he was the only one to comment on it they were suspcisiously silent about it. They weren't. They commented on it in the "Inside the episode" feature and otherwise let the show speak for itself, which is what they have always done. To pretend otherwise is disingenuous, it's creating a conspiracy where there is none. Then there's stuff like this:


 * "it is extremely incongruent that in the very next episode she doesn't particularly react as if that is what happened."


 * Considering that in their very next scene Cersei barely looks at Jaime in the eyes and they don't refer to each other by name, and Cersei even remarks upon it ("Your Grace"; "How formal", and later "That'll be all, Lord Commander"), I'd say there's plenty of visual evidence that something had happened. Rape? I don't think so, I agree it's more complicated than that, but if I were as speculative as this analysis, I could argue that's what it meant. The text speculates, but only on one direction; this conversation, which clearly meant to imply a discomfort between them, is completely absent from the analysis, and contradicted in the quote above. Why? I assume that it's because it complicates the intended argument. The point is: there should be no argument, no commentary.


 * And how can "notes" like this be justified?


 * [Note: In the next paragraph Benioff finally attempts to answer the fan's specific question, why this change was made, and what the writers intended - but after spending over 60 seconds waffling and rambling, avoiding giving a straight answer.]


 * Is that necessary? That part is supposed to be a transcription. The same goes for "Weiss continued to remain silent", as if that was in any way necessary context to transcribe the interview. It isn't. It's commentary —subjective commentary intended to criticize D&D in a section that's supposed to be impartially transcribing their words. Then a sub-section is titled with the words "suspiciously evasive." And in that section, the claim is made that Benioff avoided the issue and waffled about, despite the fact that he literally replied to the audience member —though not fast enough for it not to be suspicious, apparently.  This is followed by "Cutting out all of the time that Benioff was wandering off-topic, this is all that he responded on the matter." So, if that's the case (it isn't; he was giving context, not vereeing off-topic), then why was the rest of the quote added? To criticize Benioff's interview skills? To create the elaborate story that he's being "suspiciuously evasive", despite the fact that he then answered the question by saying they stand by the fact that they believe that's what the character would do in the situation? Remember, the audience member asked why "the rape scene" was included, and Benioff answered that; she didn't ask if it was a rape scene, so of course Benioff didn't provide an answer to that —that wasn't the question. Finally, there's the section psycho-analizing Benioff and his words —"a tell in lie detection". I'm not even going there.


 * As "Son of Fire" suggests, this situation easily reads as a bunch of people with different ideas and views giving their take on it, not the elaborate plot the text suggests. So, basically, this is my suggestion: showcase the quotes in their context and that's it; people should do their own analysis and reach their own conclusions. It's not the place of TDD or the wiki to do it for them. —ArticXiongmao (talk) 10:13, April 8, 2015 (UTC)

...Yes, it is an editorial. From time to time, wikis need to make an Administrator-level editorial statement. That's what our "In the books" sections are. Heck, even in the "Notes" sections, what are we doing when we point out "the number of troops they give in this episode contradicts what they stated last episode"?

Fundamentally, what you're arguing for is a reflection of the entire problem - no one was willing to simply read and compare statements and say "it looks like Benioff and Weiss don't really have anything coherent to say, that they never scripted this as a rape scene, and they're just too embarrassed to outright state it."

Ultimately...are you disagreeing with my conclusions as inaccurate, or...are you simply arguing on general principle that we shouldn't make such obvious analysis? That we should be an utterly inactive filter simply reposting quotes?

Heck...if you're worried it sounds more editorial than encyclopedia...I would have the Bureaucrats leave their signatures at the bottom of the page, and simply formally make it a "Wiki Editorial".

Our job is to find the truth of the matter and inform the public as best as possible.

"Considering that in their very next scene Cersei barely looks at Jaime in the eyes and they don't refer to each other by name, and Cersei even remarks upon it ("Your Grace"; "How formal", and later "That'll be all, Lord Commander"), I'd say there's plenty of visual evidence that something had happened. "

...well that's just your "editorial", and far more subjective; I was citing major publications which asked "why aren't they reacting to this" -- the ENTIRE subsection titled "this was ignored in Season 4" was quotes from major review sites, establishing the point "they don't really react like it was for the rest of the season".

Thus every subsequent time in this that I say "they don't react like it's rape for the rest of the season"...I'm referring to that previous subsection, instead of making a half dozen citation tags over and over again.

...other than complaints on general principle about even analyzing this in the first place, are there any other specific complains?

Tywin comparison - I'll take that out if the other Bureaucrats don't want it.

Bolding text - that made it more legible and highlighted the important parts.

--The Dragon Demands (talk) 15:40, April 8, 2015 (UTC)

" I honestly interpreted this article as an attempt to keep the controversy alive... dare I say even... to inflame it."

"Controversy", "the controversy" -- everyone keeps using that as a buzzword without saying exactly what they mean. Do you mean to say "we've settled into just assuming it was rape"? Because if you don't, a LOT of people still do.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 15:46, April 8, 2015 (UTC)

". I can't imagine that TDD believes that things like "We can analyze this until the White Walkers take us" belong in an enyclopedia. "

Ack, I didn't say that, it was the source I was quoting, but I forgot to set it off in indents and quote marks - thank you for pointing this out.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 15:48, April 8, 2015 (UTC)

"To pretend otherwise is disingenuous, it's creating a conspiracy where there is none. "

...Considering Bryan Cogman's blunt refusal to discuss the scene at all, OR its impact for the rest of the show and episodes he writes...yeah, that's "a conspiracy". Not Illuminati, but "dear god, we shouldn't talk about this because it's embarrassing". NOR does this explain why the director and actors said contradictory things.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 15:51, April 8, 2015 (UTC)

": And how can "notes" like this be justified?"

Not everyone is going to take the time to watch the video, and relying only on text can lack the full context of the video -- the realization that it takes 60 seconds for him to even start answering the question, which in the video feels like a really long time. It's contextualizing the print text for those who don't watch the video.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 15:52, April 8, 2015 (UTC)


 * " people should do their own analysis and reach their own conclusions. It's not the place of TDD or the wiki to do it for them. "

No.

A flat "No".

We can refine this if anyone wants, but you're asking us to pretend to be blind? That's why this problem lasted for 12 months. No one called Benioff and Weiss on their silence but presented it as evidence that they wanted it to be a rape scene.

AS THIS ARTICLE POINTS OUT, they actually NEVER described it as a rape scene, but hesitated to call it anything. Hesitated.

There's something called a "lie by omission" - even seemingly neutral quotes, not given with editorial context, can themselves be misleading.

You're asking us to leave a quote saying "Benioff never denied it was rape" (accurate)....but not have the intellectual or editorial integrity to step in and point out the obvious? "He never actually said it WAS rape either, don't misunderstand us, and based on all evidence from the actors and directors it seems that they actually never intended that but are too embarrassed to admit it".

"People should do their own analysis"...we're a wiki, we analyze things.

To say otherwise is obscene.

But again: if we are "analyzing" the scene, do you disagree with this analysis? You argue that Jaime and Cersei's interactions in "Oathkeeper" are stiff and formal enough to imply a rape scene happened in the previous episode. Fair enough.

How, then, do you account for the actors and directors saying contradictory statements?

"As "Son of Fire" suggests, this situation easily reads as a bunch of people with different ideas and views giving their take on it, not the elaborate plot the text suggests."

Actually, Son of Fire agreed that it looked like Benioff and Weiss were too embarrassed to admit it was never scripted as a rape scene.

What I mean is, are you saying that Graves and the Actors honestly interpreted it as not a rape scene, while the writers always considered it a rape scene?

As I explained: if that were the case, given their other comments...had the writers "intended" it as a rape scene, had "written" it as a rape scene, as they say, then that would be in their script that they gave the actors and director.

The fact that the actors and director deny that they ever considered it "rape" suggests that the word "rape" was not in the script, nor was "sexually assaults her", or anything to indicate that Cersei isn't consenting to this.

I'm confused: are you claiming that the script did or did not include the word "rape" or more generally, instructions that it was non-consensual in some form?

--The Dragon Demands (talk) 15:56, April 8, 2015 (UTC)

I don't think this writeup is perfect, don't get me wrong. I'm not that thin-skinned. I assumed the other Admins would refine my language and make it more concise if anything needs to be fixed up in it. --The Dragon Demands (talk) 16:03, April 8, 2015 (UTC)