Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-4708902-20160904153307/@comment-24491781-20160907012709

BigBadBruin343 wrote: Eko is Oke wrote: BigBadBruin343 wrote: Eko is Oke wrote: BigBadBruin343 wrote: Eko is Oke wrote: BigBadBruin343 wrote: Eko is Oke wrote: SummerandBran wrote: Eko is Oke wrote: Godzillavkk wrote: Yes, Bran would show Jon and Sansa visions of the truth. That way, Jon will know the truth of his parentage, and Sansa will know that Lyanna most likely ran away with Rhaegar. House Stark has often been critcised in universe and out universe for choosing their hearts desire over what society tells them, or choozing honor over duty. There are people who think that Ned should have bent to knee to Joffrey, there are people who think Robb should never have rebelled, there are those who think Robb should have kept his promise to Walder Frey. There are people who say that if any of that had happened, countless lives could have been saved. There are even those who wanted Ramsay to defeat Jon.

You know what I say to all of that? You'd rather bend the knee to a tyrant? You'd rather see people be unhappy with what society tells them to do? You'd rather be a slave? Inawar sacrifices and losses are innevitable. Yes. I actually would (except the slave part), because that's real life for you and we can't stand against our country's government and hope that we will possibly come out victorious by taking the whole society down! In real life people who rebel or do whatever the Starks did in the show - don't live very long and are either hunted down and executed or imprisoned for life.

And this is one of the reasons why I want Starks dead! So you hate good honorable people? One thing I like about this show is that is has some strong females but what I hate is they kill off the decent, moral men. Like Ned and Robb. So glad Jon didn't stay dead! And no, I'd rather be dead than bend the knee to a tyrant. And I don't do what most of society tells me to. I have a backbone and a good set of morals. I kinda feel sorry for you. I never said I follow what society does, I just pretend to so they turn the blind eye, but I wouldn't hesitate to eliminate them if and when the opportunity presents itself.

Men like Ned, Robb and Jon deserve to die, did they forgot that this game of thrones? No one cares about your honor - it's victory or death in all of Westeros.

It may be tradition for Starks to have honor above all else but if that's the case they most surely don't know other houses and people as well as they think they do.

Your right, it is Game of Thrones, and that's why Ramsay lost. Game of Thrones follows logic, Ramsay's battle plan or moronic at best: kill half his army (living less than 3,000 men, not nearly enough to beat the Lannisters, or the other northern houses if they unite), don't send scouts, kill all of your horse, and don't keep a rear guard. Ramsay's plan was dumb, and short sighted, that's why he lost. Maybe, maybe not but one thing is certain is that his plan was still much better than Jon Snow's (which he deliberately sabotaged himself). And basically Ramsay's plan was to outsmart Jon Snow and he did that perfectly, regardless of cost of his losses and whatnot.

I woulda done the same thing as long it would grant me victory over my enemy that I am facing/battling.

Jon's plan was actually really good. It was the same as Hannibal Barca's at the Battle of Cannae, where Hannibal had about 45,000 men (who were all tired and hungry) while the Romans had 90,000... Hannibal obliterated the Roman army.

Jon pulled a Leeroy Jenkins, that was his problem. Ramsay's plan DIDN'T guarantee victory. It was a short sighted stratagy, that Ramsay really didn't need to exucute, given that he had a larger force. He just so sadistic that he'd thought he'd kill as many people as possible, even if they were his own men. Ramsay lost becuase he's an idiot that can't see the big picture. No Ramsay lost because Sansa called for Littlefinger and Knights of the Vale And the Knights of the Vale were able to get into the North because Ramsay didn't bother keep a few hundered well supplied troops at Moat Cailin. If he had done that he would have been able to push the Knights of the Vale back. A few hundered men at Moat Cailin can throw back thusands of men, but Ramsay was so dead set on using every man he could get, he didn't bother to think about possible attacks from the south, like his father warned him about. Face it, Ramsay was just as dumb as Jon during the Battle of the Bastards. Littlefinger said that Arryn has about 20,000 soldiers few hundred at Moat Cailin wouldn't have made a difference.

Another thing is Ramsay anticipated and expected this to be battle him with Boltons, Karstarks and Umbers against Jon Snow + wildings and whatever little numbers of smaller houses he had with him. He had no idea that House Arryn would march thousands of Knights all the way to Winterfell in the North from Eyrie. He effectively knew that was his battle to win if Knights didn't show up.

Finally there are other ways to Winterfell, they don't even need to take the Kingsroad through Moat Cailin, and they were all Knights on horses, so they easily could take the rough terrain west or east of Moat Cailin to get to Winterfell.

A few hunderd men held off Andel armies numbering in the tens of thusands. And even if they couldn't beat the Arryns back, Ramsay would have had advanced warrning, at least. And you keep outriders to be your army's eyes, you don't just keep them on the roads, you have them scout in each direction. Ramsay ignored his father's advice, Roose knew that the south would attack at some point, and he wanted to be prepared, Ramsay didn't care, he didn't see the big picture like Roose did. Roose didn't want to secure his hold on the North. Ramsay wanted to kill Jon to make sure Boltons have secured North and Winterfell. Ramsay's plan was to get rid of House Stark something what Tywin and Walder and Roose too had it planned after Battle of Blackwater.

Roose had no reason to believe that south would attack them because he wouldn't think that South would march their forces all the way to the North (Arryn is technically part of the North not south). He even said so himself that Tywin Lannister gave him the North but he wouldn't he him secure it alas by sending no men from Westerlands all the way into the North.

In conclusion Roose had one plan to strengthen their hold and Ramsay had another, it was just a matter of time until Ramsay gained the upper hand on his father.