User talk:The Dragon Demands

Welcome
Hi, welcome to Game of Thrones Wiki! Thanks for your edit to the User:The Dragon Demands page.

We welcome all contributions to the Wiki but please be aware of the following simple rules:

1) This wiki is meant for the Game of Thrones TV series and the TV alone. Spoilers from the novels are not permitted at all. Discussion of earlier events in the novels and the use of non-spoiler background material from the novel as regards specific events, characters and places in the TV series are allowed (in the 'In the books' section of an article) but future events cannot be discussed.

2) This wiki has specific permission from HBO's marketing department to use a reasonable number of promotional images and screencaps from the series to illustrate articles. The use of other copyrighted images is not permitted without either specific permission or fair use attributions. For example, this Wiki cannot use Amoka's portrait images or Ted Nasmith's castle pictures as these are copyrighted. In addition, the Wiki is focused on the TV series and TV series alone. Images from other media should be avoided without a very good cause.

Enjoy your editing and please leave a message on my talk page if I can help with anything! -- Opark 77 (Talk) 00:33, April 13, 2012

Thanks for your message and welcome again.--Opark 77 16:21, April 15, 2012 (UTC)

Numbered names
Daenerys is the only Targaryen of that name established in the context of the TV series so we don't need to worry about disambiguation there unless the show establishes her ancestor. Otherwise we should disambiguate.--Opark 77 22:36, April 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * In that case, given that he didn't actually rule and his name won't come up frequently, maybe he should be renamed "Aegon Targaryen (Rhaegar's son)" or something, and the other one titled "Aegon the Conqueror". Maybe the Conqueror should be "Aegon Targaryen" he comes up more. --The Dragon Demands 22:38, April 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * Would you mind replying on my talk page so I get an alert about your message? I have made Aegon Targaryen a disambiguation page. Perhaps you could take on redirecting the links there to the appropriate other article? As an aside your to do list's third point is patently untrue and quite irritating to someone who invests a lot of their time keeping all of our character articles up to date on a weekly basis. If you can help me out with those links then I can carry on updating the main characters (and yes then the supporting characters) with their role in this weeks episode. I do this systematically on a weekly basis.--Opark 77 22:51, April 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for removing that.--Opark 77 23:10, April 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm really sorry, I just wrote that down stream-of-consciousness-like the other day; I think I just came it at an off-time in the 'lurch between activity. I think I've found the culprit: I didn't realize that Game of Thrones airs on Monday nights in the UK, while it airs on Sunday nights here in the USA (I'm in New York City); thus at the time, I rushed to my computer to update stuff Monday morning, but couldn't figure out why everyone else wasn't just yet. I think you guys were just fixing up the articles on the prostitute characters from episode 2 of season 2, as there were scenes at Chez Littlefinger in that episode, while I was on the edge of my seat about stuff happening in episode 3. I will take this time difference into account from now on. --The Dragon Demands 23:22, April 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * Could well be. Thanks again for removing it and no hard feelings on my part.--Opark 77 18:00, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

Mercenaries
Looks really good, thanks for your work.--Opark 77 10:36, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

Essos Geography
Thanks for the correction re: Forest of Qohor. My erroneous Zohor has been merged in. With regard to towns vs. cities I am happy for you to alter the articles or note the book version in the section if you would like.--Opark 77 17:54, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

Pronunciation guide
The pronunciation guide was given here by scriptwriter/editor Bryan Cogamn.--Werthead 18:53, April 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * It is here.--Opark 77 23:02, June 5, 2012 (UTC)
 * Can you not add references to the punctuation guide to the "In the books" section. It is more of a "Behind the scenes" thing if anything. We probably ought to reference it wherever we refer to it also.--Opark 77 16:54, June 15, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well I reference it by linking to it. As for the section, not every page has a "Behind the Scenes" section and I don't want to clutter them up by adding more unnecessarily. The pronunciation guide would have been approved by Martin, so it should be equally applicable to the books. Either way I'm just getting it on the page in some form as a stop-gap measure, and they can be reshuffled into "Behind the Scenes" later...--The Dragon Demands 17:23, June 15, 2012 (UTC)

Maps
I need to confirm with HBO that we can use the map from their website to illustrate our articles (as we have on the Slaver's Bay page as a test case). If they say yes, I can create smaller regional maps from that. However, the larger map of Westeros with the region coloured in red should stay as it establishes the region in the overall picture of the continent. Since we have no space limitations on the website, there is no real reason not to include it (although the dimensions of the map are indeed somewhat awkward to work with). As for the world map, the compass box is there for the simple reason that it covers an area that we don't have any maps for :-) The western bit of Sothoryos is from the books, the eastern bit is from the HBO map, but the bit in the middle that connects the two is a mystery. Until that is resolved we can't put anything there, so the compass box conveniently covers it over. As for the red dot, simply download a map which has the red dot not surrounded by any other features (I find the Winterfell one works best) and cut, resize, copy and paste as needed.--Werthead 19:56, April 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh okay. What I meant was, can we take that same Westeros map image, "crop" it and zoom in on say, the Riverlands; the resolution wouldn't be improved but its not trying to be a more accurate map. Nor do I really want to use other sections of the HBO map as from Slaver's Bay, it was a bit too...lyrical, compared to the cut-and-dry black-and-whites. I'll play around with this and see if they meet your approval...--The Dragon Demands 23:55, April 22, 2012 (UTC)

Interwiki links
Opark 77 06:51, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

Opark 77 02:11, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

Tx/La
I live between the two. Currently I am living/working in Louisiana (New Orleans), but go home to Texas from time to time to see family :) -- 16:11, April 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * This must make True Blood fun.--The Dragon Demands 19:35, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah it's neat when they mention cities that I know or have been to lol 00:12, April 24, 2012 (UTC)

AWOIAF
AWOIAF has nothing to do with this wiki on a policy level. AWOIAF's standard of English is generally low and I don't think we should use them as a template for our articles. We link to them because they are the most comprehensive book resource but we are not trying to emulate their policies. Blanket statements like this one are incorrect.--Opark 77 02:18, April 25, 2012 (UTC)


 * Okay then; the other examples I showed from google search were more important to what I was saying, but nevermind.--The Dragon Demands 02:50, April 25, 2012 (UTC)


 * I wasn't referring to the detailed explanation you posted on the talk page but to the specific edit summary that I linked to.--Opark 77 07:17, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

New photos
Be careful, they have a black line above.--Gonzalo84 01:32, April 26, 2012 (UTC)


 * Ack, I'll have to read that.--The Dragon Demands 01:36, April 26, 2012 (UTC)


 * Great job on the summaries and categories but could you please also add a licensing tag. For screenshots we use e.g. this edit.--Opark 77 07:16, April 26, 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes, I noticed that halfway through: I originally thought those were added automatically. --The Dragon Demands 16:26, April 26, 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks. If we could make it do that it would be nice but I'm not aware how.--Opark 77 16:30, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

Spoilers
Several of your edits regarding the latest episode clearly violate the spoiler policy here by discussing events from later in the book series. You are a valued contributor here but please work within the established policies.--Opark 77 21:47, May 7, 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry I'm not sure where the blurred lines end. Its not as if I said how Rodrick actually does die in the books. --The Dragon Demands 22:27, May 7, 2012 (UTC)

Undoing edits
I've had a message from 132.72.45.21 about your conduct regarding the climate mentions in our region articles. Where your work is challenged and a source is requested it is not acceptable to blank undo those changes like this. This is described as edit warring on wikipedia where it happens more than once and is something we want to avoid. If you disagree with an edit then your first recourse is to engage the editor in discussion on the talk page. As a bare minimum you need to describe your position in the edit summary. I note from the page history that this has been going back and forth without discussion. Where an editor challenges content and requests a source you should source the content before restoring it.--Opark 77 06:23, May 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * I think its confusing to say "The North has the smallest population" when in fact, the books say it really doesn't, its just the most sparsely populated. Rather, all of this should probably be moved to "in the books". No, I was not "edit warring" -- I barely had time to fix up "Currency" and I'm sorry I didn't have time to properly integrate these things from "the North", "the Riverlands", etc. I was racing out the door to catch a plane to Kalamazoo where I am presenting an article at the International Medieval Congress 2012. I'm sorry if some of my edits were curt, but I was finishing up real-life work things in preparation for my trip and barely had the time to devote to finessing these articles. --The Dragon Demands 21:49, May 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your reply. I appreciate that you were short of time. I am struggling to keep up with season 2 myself. I would suggest leaving the pages until you have time to properly address the issues raised - older versions are always available in the page history if you want to work on something that has been removed. I hope your presentation went (or goes depending on when this reaches you) well and congratulations on reaching an international forum.--Opark 77 22:02, May 10, 2012 (UTC)


 * To summarize the general design scheme I'm arguing for, its "why not just put this under "in the books"? i.e. how I just punched up "Currency" (and...wow there were more redundancies in there than I remembered making...), and I don't like seeing stuff deleted outright (being an Inclusionist). At any rate I should make the time to finesse stuff into the "In the Books" sections if I want to keep it (as I did for Currency). Thanks for your understanding, the semester just ended so I'll be able to edit without racing against the clock when I return next week. --The Dragon Demands 22:10, May 10, 2012 (UTC)

House Baratheon
We did not have a House Baratheon of Storm's End article. We had House Baratheon and modified it to show the changes under Renly. Seeing as Stannis has assumed the house I believe User:Gonzalo84 has changed things back to Stannis.

I think we are treating the Storm's End branch as the main one so didn't differentiate it, do you think we should? I would be happy for you to do so but making House Baratheon a disambiguation page will involve a huge amount of link redirecting. Also, I think the Storm's End one should retain the sections on the founding of the house by Orys.

The current House Baratheon lacks info from season 1 and season 2, which when added should definitely mention Renly's rule of the House. Perhaps we could also establish a subarticle if there is enough content (three paragraphs is my rule of thumb for splitting) e.g. "House Baratheon under Renly I". The heraldry images are still on the wiki as far as I know, the page history of Template:Baratheon navbox and House Baratheon should have them somewhere.--Opark 77 09:40, May 15, 2012 (UTC)

IP vandals
Thank you for watching for and undoing vandalism and thanks for the note on my talk page. I have blocked the offending user.--Opark 77 09:47, May 15, 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the message and for undoing the offending edits. I have blocked the vandal.--Opark 77 15:16, June 23, 2012 (UTC)

Shireen casting
Can you provide a source regarding casting calls for Shireen? I had read rumours but nothing concrete.--Opark 77 21:24, May 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * Only the rumors that WinterIsComing.net reported on.--The Dragon Demands 21:28, May 17, 2012 (UTC)

Chat
Hey! Since your like the only active user, can you chat right now? I would love to chat with another member of Targaryen blood :p

Apostrophes
Do I? Can you cite an example of me using apostrophes instead of quotation marks? I'm on chat if you want to talk this through.--Opark 77 20:18, May 18, 2012 (UTC)


 * Just now on the Brienne of Tarth page: http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Brienne_of_Tarth?diff=38149&oldid=38148 --The Dragon Demands 20:26, May 18, 2012 (UTC)

Rodrik
I read it as potentially being consistent; the failed landing at Seagard could have been part of a failed attempt to attack King's Landing.--Opark 77 21:25, May 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * Seagard is nowhere near King's Landing, its on the opposite coast of the continent. --The Dragon Demands 21:27, May 18, 2012 (UTC)

King's Landing is relatively central being situated at the mouth of the Blackwater Rush, Seagard is a natural foothold for landing troops to get to the Crownlands from the Iron Islands being situated on the shore of Ironman's Bay. If you were Balon where would you have attacked through?--Opark 77 21:31, May 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * If I were in Balon's position, I'd *raid* the major cities along the coast close to the Iron Islands, not risk an overland attack against King's Landing, i.e. raids against Lannisport and Old Town. Even the sovereign nation of the Iron Islands at its height before the Targaryen Conquest never extended that far east.--The Dragon Demands 21:51, May 18, 2012 (UTC)

Ah, you think Balon is a strategist. If he were strategically minded I don't think he would have waited eight years to rebel against a stable and well positioned king. Seeing as the show is characterising it as a stupid rebellion I don't think attempting a foolish overland assault is out of the question. I think if his aim was a raid to take a royal prisoner to negotiate his secession rather than to conquer the city there is only stupid rather than completely incredible.--Opark 77 22:35, May 18, 2012 (UTC)

Armor vs Armour
I wasn't fully cognisant of that one, I will turn off the autocorrect for it and try to remember it in future.--Opark 77 23:29, May 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * (sigh) Cognizant. When in doubt, drop the "u" (color, honor) and use Z instead of S...the Z makes it look cool. --The Dragon Demands 23:32, May 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * sigh the American obsession with cool. Do you really spell it like that? Even though it derives from the latin? Your colonial idiosyncrasies are so peculiar.--Opark 77 00:07, May 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * I wasn't being sarcastic, yes "realize" and other words are spelled with a "Z".--The Dragon Demands 01:20, May 19, 2012 (UTC)

Userboxes
I've noticed a slight problem with the userboxes. They include a category that is automatically added to any page they are used on. This is because of the way that templates work - asking for a template using the { brackets transcludes the code from the template page onto the page where it is being used. If there are bits that we don't want to transclude then we have to tag them with e.g. this edit. Would you be able to fix up the others to prevent us categorizing the user pages where they are implemented as being userboxes? Thank you again for creating them, I think it is a really good idea.--Opark 77 09:25, May 20, 2012 (UTC)

Quotes
As one inclusionist to another please can I ask you to move any existing quote down to a quotes section when you are replacing the lead quote for an article like this.--Opark 77 09:28, May 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh sorry, I was trying to do that. But I was hurrying to get header quotes on one character to the next so sometimes I forgot to add a Quotes section to the body and move the earlier quotes there. Wasn't my intention to delete them.--The Dragon Demands 18:09, May 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * No worries, thanks for your continued efforts. I think its a tie between you and Gonzalo who has come up with the best quotes so far. My ear for them is not as good as you guys.--Opark 77 18:37, May 20, 2012 (UTC)

Contributions
I've missed your input the last couple of days since the new episode aired; we rely on your insights. I am sorry that certain users have been irritating you so much and thank you for voicing your concerns the other day. You are a valued contributor and I want to support your continued work here. I am afraid I cannot go so far as to exclude another user permanently solely for that reason though. I think we have to make blocking another user dependent on continued rules violations and to be fair to all our users. I want the wiki to be available to users of varying levels of ability and commitment to get a wide range of editors. I try to encourage problematic editors to improve their work and see blocking as a last resort. I am sympathetic to your frustration and am frequently frustrated by some of the editing behavior here myself. I hope that we can all work together constructively but please continue to let me know if you see further rules violations from any editors.--Opark 77 12:55, May 22, 2012 (UTC)


 * You misunderstand, I would not be so petulant as to leave in a huff over something like that. I was busy tying up end-of-semester work - the seasons change, spring semester ends and summer semester begins, I was just in the library acquiring all of the books I'd need to take back with me during the summer.--The Dragon Demands 02:32, May 30, 2012 (UTC)


 * In that case sorry if I overreacted. I've taken the deletion tag off Release of Jaime Lannister, I agree that it shouldn't be written up as a battle but we did redlink to it so I don't think we should discard all the work the new editor put into it.--Opark 77 06:14, May 30, 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes, yes we should delete it. What "work"? All they did was slap battle-box template onto an event which wasn't a battle. Work? You mean a paragraph of writing? Suddenly, we're going to start freewheeling and making specific pages for simple events that happened in episodes? I.e. "Joffrey has the Kingsguard beat up Sansa?" As for red links...there are no red links to that. At least, not now. Even removing the battle-box is insufficient; it doesn't merit its own article more than a hundred other events. Its not even an assassination. There's a vote for deletion up for it now on its talk page, we'll continue there...--The Dragon Demands 18:37, May 30, 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes I mean their paragraph of writing. For an editor new to the wiki coming in and writing something for the first time is a big deal and we should try to welcome them and encourage them instead of blanking away their efforts without discussion. If a new editor has acted in good faith but got something wrong then try to tell them why and help them improve.--Opark 77 18:26, May 31, 2012 (UTC)

Blanking pages
Blanking pages, even if you think they should be deleted, is unacceptable. Please don't do that again.--Opark 77 22:06, May 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * Okay.--The Dragon Demands 22:53, May 30, 2012 (UTC)

Spoiler policy
Just a reminder about the spoiler policy:

The Game of Thrones television series is an adaptation of the Song of Ice and Fire novels but will deviate from them in some areas. In addition this wiki is meant for the enjoyment of watchers of the television series who do not have any knowledge of the books. For this reason, spoilers and events from the books are not permitted on entries on this Wiki. Information from the books can be added to entries once the TV series has reached the same point in the story. For book-specific information, please visit the Wiki of Ice and Fire.

This edit violates the spoiler policy in that it confirms the character is alive as of the fifth book and in that it gives the reader information from the books not available at this point in the TV series narrative. We need to confine our in the books section to material from the early chapters of A Storm of Swords that have been adapted and earlier, unless the TV series has specifically adapted material from a later chapter (e.g. Tyrion relaying that he was put in charge of drains and cisterns at Casterly Rock from A Dance With Dragons.)--Opark 77 18:23, May 31, 2012 (UTC)


 * You're completely right, I wasn't sure about it as soon as I added it.--The Dragon Demands 18:34, May 31, 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm afraid that I agree with Padenton that this edit introduces a spoiler. TV only viewers who feel that Syrio's fate was ambiguous will be spoiled by knowing whether or not he reappears as of the fifth book. Once again the key to avoiding spoilers here, even relatively small ones like this, is not to mention anything at all from the later books unless it has already been adapted into the TV show.--Opark 77 17:06, June 10, 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm pretty sure this is just good faith editing that doesn't quite appreciate the requirements of the spoiler policy. Can you see where you went wrong? Can you confirm that you are going to try to adhere to the policy in future?--Opark 77 17:18, June 10, 2012 (UTC)


 * You haven't replied to this. I've just had to delete a comment in which you clearly knew you were posting book spoilers because you prefaced it with a statement that it was a spoiler. Our spoiler policy prohibits posting spoilers from the books even if they are prefaced by a warning. Please reread the spoiler policy. I consider this a formal warning. Any further violations of the spoiler policy will force me to block you for 1 week, with blocks of increasing duration for repeated violations.--Opark 77 17:54, June 13, 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry for not responding I thought my continued communication implied that I read it. The Tyrion comment was not a real spoiler and meant as a joke. As for the blog comment, the comment you replaced it with was far better than what I said, and without spoilers, fully addressed the problem (looking up the actors and pointing out that an entirely different person plays that White Walker). Thank you for handling that better than I did.--The Dragon Demands 18:20, June 13, 2012 (UTC)

White Walkers
I've removed the speculative section about their naming. It is not for us to speculate why they were named differently in our articles. If we can find a source that discusses the renaming we should use it. Otherwise it would make for an interesting blog post.--Opark 77 18:23, May 31, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well okay I guess so. I do hope someday there's an official interview where they own up to why they changed it. --The Dragon Demands 18:26, May 31, 2012 (UTC)

Gaps
A lot of our articles with infoboxes have a misplaced gap at their beginning.

Character with a gap

Gives:

Character with a gap

What we should have is:

Character with no gap

Which gives:

Character with no gap

The reason I am telling you is that your recent edit to Faith of R'hllor introduced a gap. Please take care to make sure there is no empty space between the infobox and the start of the lead.--Opark 77 18:38, May 31, 2012 (UTC)

Block
I've blocked you for 24 hours for incivility. Please assume good faith. It is unacceptable to insult another user no matter how you feel about their edits. e.g. this edit.--Opark 77 06:19, June 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * I apologize, it was late and I was frustrated and my patience had long since worn thin on this; I should not have given LovelyChrys this tongue-lashing (which is why I then started a forum post to ask for input on the problem; but I should have deleted my original complaints). You yourself have (more officially) just posted a warning on her talk page about the exact same issues; wacky choice of quotes and a lot of image rule violations. I was angered at the recidivism of it, as a persistent problem. I should have gone straight to the Admins. I'm sorry you think I need a cooldown period but okay. I'll come to you with these complaints next time....also, and this is kind of embarrassing...I'm sorry for my harsh choice of words. You see..."you know you're watching too much Farscape" when you start using Farscape swear words. You know, "dren", "harpooda", etc. So while I shouldn't have said anything...they say "trollop" so often on Farscape that I didn't realize it was an actual word (a synonym for "strumpet" or "harlot"). I thought it was like calling someone a scruffy nerf-herder. Ack. Well I should really leave it to the Admins to deal with this. I'm sorry but it was just that as someone who takes the whole "making a guide to Game of Thrones" thing seriously, the repeated requests to write fanfic or treat images like a private tumblr blog ("my lil dwarf"?) were really starting to grate on me.


 * I should probably also mention this, much to my chagrin: yesterday I was at a function preparing for my sister's upcoming wedding, to pick what food and drink the caterers would serve. Part of this involved sampling their wines...I'm actually a teetotaler, but I made an exception being that it was for a wedding and all. Needless to say I am "quite unaccustomed to wine" and came home after drinking something like 8 to 10 glasses in rapid succession. I fear it "went straight to my head" and I was more than a little tipsy while adding these comments last night, for which I received this warning. I'm sorry, I rarely if ever drink.


 * I hope this leaves no long term damage.--The Dragon Demands 17:51, June 1, 2012 (UTC)


 * No long term damage done. I understand. Thank you for the explanation and the apology. I have lifted the block.--Opark 77 18:34, June 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * Seems a certain user get's to a lot of us. I will keep the name to myself, but I am sure you both know. Borrowed time. -- 18:39, June 1, 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. By the way, what happened to all of my wiki badges and points? I had 1800 of them....also it seems I cannot edit pages or use the chatroom still (shrug) Probably it will all be back to normal once the original 24 hour block expires around noon tomorrow.--The Dragon Demands 20:17, June 1, 2012 (UTC)

I will check on the chat room ban thingy. Chrys has been re-blocked. 20:45, June 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * try now? QueenBuffy


 * That is strange and I can only apologize. I have tried to clear the block log a second time but I get an error message saying that the block has already been lifted. Maybe try one more time tonight but if it is still in effect then sorry again and thanks for your patience. I can still see you as having your badges and 1900 points so once the block resolves hopefully you will be able to see that too.--Opark 77 20:49, June 1, 2012 (UTC)

Good evening.

I assume it was you who left the message on my talk? Thank you for this, it's always good to receive constructive criticism.

I understand it is an American series, but I wasn't certain at first on the American English policy; for example, House Greyjoy is Greyjoy, not Grayjoy, so I wasn't really sure. However, as a Briton, I automatically spell things in English (English/British English). I'll try to do this, but I can't promise anything.

Quotation marks I'll be sure to add in instead of apostrophies, were necessary.

I'm relativley sure that I have been putting all book-related information in the appropriate sections? However, thankyou for telling me, I'll be sure to amend this when I can.

As I said, I assume it was you who added the post on my talk detailing this, please tell me if it wasn't.

~

Good evening.

I assume it was you who left the message on my talk? Thank you for this, it's always good to receive constructive criticism.

I understand it is an American series, but I wasn't certain at first on the American English policy; for example, House Greyjoy is Greyjoy, not Grayjoy, so I wasn't really sure. However, as a Briton, I automatically spell things in English (English/British English). I'll try to do this, but I can't promise anything.

Quotation marks I'll be sure to add in instead of apostrophies, were necessary.

I'm relativley sure that I have been putting all book-related information in the appropriate sections? However, thankyou for telling me, I'll be sure to amend this when I can.

As I said, I assume it was you who added the post on my talk detailing this, please tell me if it wasn't.

Thedoucheinthenorth 21:09, June 3, 2012 (UTC) Thedoucheinthenorth (I don't how to link this bit back to me, sorry about that.)

(Ignore my previous two near identical messages, they are the result of publishing errors.)

Formatting
Good evening.

I assume it was you who left the message on my talk? Thank you for this, it's always good to receive constructive criticism.

I understand it is an American series, but I wasn't certain at first on the American English policy; for example, House Greyjoy is Greyjoy, not Grayjoy, so I wasn't really sure. However, as a Briton, I automatically spell things in English (English/British English). I'll try to do this, but I can't promise anything.

Quotation marks I'll be sure to add in instead of apostrophies, were necessary.

I'm relativley sure that I have been putting all book-related information in the appropriate sections? However, thankyou for telling me, I'll be sure to amend this when I can.

As I said, I assume it was you who added the post on my talk detailing this, please tell me if it wasn't.

Thedoucheinthenorth 21:09, June 3, 2012 (UTC)

(Ignore my previous three near identical messages, they are the result of publishing errors.) Re: Formatting
Good evening.

I assume it was you who left the message on my talk? Thank you for this, it's always good to receive constructive criticism.

I understand it is an American series, but I wasn't certain at first on the American English policy; for example, House Greyjoy is Greyjoy, not Grayjoy, so I wasn't really sure. However, as a Briton, I automatically spell things in English (English/British English). I'll try to do this, but I can't promise anything.

Quotation marks I'll be sure to add in instead of apostrophies, were necessary.

I'm relativley sure that I have been putting all book-related information in the appropriate sections? However, thankyou for telling me, I'll be sure to amend this when I can.

As I said, I assume it was you who added the post on my talk detailing this, please tell me if it wasn't.

Thedoucheinthenorth 21:09, June 3, 2012 (UTC)

Just so you are aware, your source for "bad grammar" is a not a reliable source for proper style. I would suggest you consider something like Strunks Style Guide or The Chicago Manual of Style. These are more definitive sources for how to properly apply punctuation in the English language. In the hopes of being constructive, you might not want to change ALL single quote marks (apostrophes) with double quotation marks, as they are not universally required nor proper. In fact, a quote within a quote such as, Joffrey said, My father told me to 'always stand tall'", would in fact require both single and double quotations. Dragon831 01:04, June 5, 2012 (UTC)


 * I thought I said that they should only be used for quotes within quotes, that is acceptable.--The Dragon Demands 01:07, June 5, 2012 (UTC)

Lots of respect
Thank you for the templates which allow users to display a House Sigil. It was very thoughtful of you and a nice touch. Thanks :) Thedoucheinthenorth 22:52, June 3, 2012 (UTC)

Vandalism 4 June
Thanks for the messages re: vandalism yesterday. I dealt with some of them and Gonzalo84 has blocked the others.

Also please remember that the spoiler policy applies to the whole site (including talk pages and the forum).--Opark 77 08:58, June 5, 2012 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I thought a forum post about "differences between the books and TV series" would inherently carry a warning of book spoilers.--173.2.197.76 15:41, June 5, 2012 (UTC)


 * It certainly does. Its just that the site as a whole presents itself to readers as being free of book spoilers beyond the point covered in the TV show. That is a firm policy. The post is really interesting and I didn't like having to edit it but those bits I cut are just not suitable for this site. Sorry.--Opark 77 15:46, June 5, 2012 (UTC)


 * Well so long as you read it, and the other regulars will just check the History tab to see the original.--The Dragon Demands 15:50, June 5, 2012 (UTC)

Thanks
Thank you for correcting my image format on the House Stark page. I was initally concerned at the fact I wasn't sure how to arrange the images correctly, but you sorted that out :)

Thedoucheinthenorth 19:12, June 5, 2012 (UTC)


 * We're going to run into problems whenever we have a lot of photos that go with relatively little text; the images get all jumbled up. There's no easy way around this. We need to keep refining stuff (the Stark page seems okay for now).--The Dragon Demands 19:20, June 5, 2012 (UTC)

English
There is absolutely nothing wrong with Canadian English. I am a Canadian, and that is the only type of English I am familiar with. Calling it "embarrassing" is bad taste and simply derogatory. --Punjabiknight

...I said there were too many "embarrassing cases of aluminium"....we've never mentioned "aluminium" on this wiki. That part was gentle sarcasm about my frustration with British English.

That being said; I'm surprised that there's even debate about using British English. In all the years I've edited on Tolkien wikis, or Tolkien pages on Wikipedia, or if you check out Harry Potter articles on wikipedia...they're all written in British English because the books themselves are British in origin.


 * I* put in the extra effort to write in British English when I'm editing on Tolkien wikis. Make no mistake I do not chafe under this; I write in British English without complaint when I use a Tolkien Wiki. It is an accepted part of how things work: If I visit France, I speak French. If I visit a Tolkien wiki, I write in British English. But the A Song of Ice and Fire book series is written in American English. Thus, American English will be standard.

hey
What is going on with User:Punjabiknight?? Why is he snapping at you? -- 05:55, June 6, 2012 (UTC)
 * I was baffled by this as well. My running guess is that he's new to wikis in general -- he joined a day ago, seemed irate that I edited text he wrote in "Ygritte" that he wrote, then accused me of vandalizing his "Profile Page"....even though History pages confirm that I didn't edit it at all, I left a *note* in good faith on his *Talk* page about using footnotes instead of in-text citations. Don't respond here: I made a thorough writeup on his Talk page with links to the relevant History tabs highlighting which text got changed. Please check it out.--The Dragon Demands 06:44, June 6, 2012 (UTC)

Vandalism
Any vandalism like that, that I might miss, just send it to me- I will block them for you :) -- 05:13, June 7, 2012 (UTC)

American English and Ygritte article
I am not pouting, nor am I insulting you in any way. I am simply using the only English I know, and that is Canadian English. I am not an American, and I have no obligation to alter the way I'm use to typing/reading. I've done nothing wrong, and you have no right to threaten me by "taking it up with the admins". So go ahead, take it up with the admins, I've done nothing but contribute accurately to this wiki. Good day.
 * Most wiki's, like this one... go by "American" spelling- because it is an American show. The spelling should be "Color". Hope this settles it :) -- 16:57, June 7, 2012 (UTC)

First off, I've told you before that Profile pages and Talk pages are two different things; you're supposed to post stuff here, not vandalize my profile page (thank you QueenBuffy for moving it). But you're new to that.

Yes, you are obligated to use American English. That's what "it is standard to use American English on this wiki" *means*, that means its "obligated". Now of course, in practical terms, if you're unfamiliar with American English I don't expect you to keep to these standards all the time because you don't know them well, but *in theory* you're supposed to acknowledge that this is the "correct" version, when someone else fixes the spelling to match American English.

But you didn't do that, so you can't claim ignorance or unfamiliarity as quote "the only English I know". As evidenced by the edit History page on "Ygritte" -- http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Ygritte?action=history -- you actually *changed it back* to "colour" TWO times, after I had already given the edit summary explanation that "it is the standard on this wiki to use American English spelling, as in the books".

After I gave that explanation, you couldn't claim ignorance anymore...not that I expect you to remember to post it as "color" in every page on the wiki, but that isn't the situation...you immediately engaged in a revert-edit war by directly changing the Ygritte article back to "colour" even after I'd informed you that this wasn't correct. Its not as if you went to the Wildling page next week and used "colour" because you forgot we don't use American English spelling. You actively changed the Ygritte page back to "colour" after I'd told you it wasn't correct. Actively. You put in extra effort to do that. So I changed it back with the warning that you should "stop pouting. Or I'll take this up with the Admins."....and AGAIN, you changed it back. You could have even asked one of the Admins for arbitration, you didn't. This was "pouting" by any definition.

Please stop engaging in petty edit wars. I won't harass you about spelling it as "colour" or other British Spellings....in the sense that I won't yell at you for doing it. But if I edit a page you've added to to *fix your spelling to standard American English*, it is inexcusable to simply revert my edits. George R.R. Martin is an American from New Jersey. He's not from London, he's not from Winnipeg, he's not a block-headed Bracegirdle from Hardbottle. We've already decided that American English is standard. *Actively changing things BACK to British English*, after being specifically warned, is quite disruptive. --The Dragon Demands 17:55, June 7, 2012 (UTC)


 * I've seen the talk you had with Admin Opark77 on your own Talk Page. I understand you're not familiar with stuff, and I'm not trying to attack you. Please just don't take our your frustration with edits. If you just stick to adding content and don't get upset when the spelling gets altered by others, all will be well.--The Dragon Demands 18:13, June 7, 2012 (UTC)

can you
Can you come speak to me privately in chat real quick- it's about another user.... 18:03, June 7, 2012 (UTC)

Spelling
Could you please change your description of Canadian/British English as "embarrassing". It's not sarcastic to me at all, and is in fact quite degrading. Thanks.

Thank you. It may be incorrect for you, but American English is incorrect for me. Again, thanks for eradicating the insultive language used.

Adam Friedberg
I think that we should create a tag to mark it as parody.--Gonzalo84 02:28, June 9, 2012 (UTC)

Well its half-parody, half-serious quotations about "sexposition" on the show. Yes, I think should make a tab or something, I just don't know how (I did make a linebreak and then a new subheader, "Behind the Scenes: Sexposition", Adam Friedberg is a parody skit from SNL." Other wikis for things like Star Trek, etc. have tongue-in-cheek articles which present extra-canon parodies as serious entries, then leave a note that they really aren't.--The Dragon Demands 02:44, June 9, 2012 (UTC)

I don't think we should present it as a serious entry. I'm not sure we should even have an article on it. We don't have an article on the snl parody or the Simpsons intro. The sexposition stuff should go in an article about sexposition.--Opark 77 09:32, June 9, 2012 (UTC)


 * I've nominated the article for deletion and have stated my reasoning at Talk:Adam Friedberg.--Opark 77 09:56, June 9, 2012 (UTC)

House Tyrell
Good job updating the house article and good catch with QueenBuffy adding it to the slider.--Opark 77 21:21, June 9, 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I should have realized this sooner. I'm surprised at myself; for something like a week I'd see the slider "House Tyrell" and went "good that they've added focus on that by putting it on the front page for the new viewers", but the entire time I never checked in on it. Simply did not make that mental connection. Ack.--The Dragon Demands 21:25, June 9, 2012 (UTC)

It's and It is.
Hi. Just for future reference, you had "It's" and "Its" mixed up. "It's" is the contraction of "it" and "is" or "has", as it contains an apostrophe, the dead giveaway that it's a contraction. "Its" is possessive.

Examples...
The dog is playing with its ball.

It's a raining day today.

Categorizing images
At present we do not categorize our images very specifically by subject. We have Category:Image (Special Features) for images taken from the special features. I can see from Category_talk:Images_(Children_of_the_Forest) that there was some confusion over what it means to start a category. Tagging a page with a category that doesn't exist is not the same as starting a category; it is similar to putting a redlink into an article in that once it is done the database will start recording that category tag as part of a list at Special:WantedCategories but the category technically does not exist yet. To start a category you have to add something to the category page itself which is what User:Urbancowgurl777 did. So while you requested the category by tagging your images with it she was the one who actually started the category. I think it is worthwhile categorizing our images by subject but we need to be systematic about introducing that. Is that something you would be willing to devote time to? At present I am working on separating Category:Image (Season 1) and Category:Image (Season 2) by episode which is taking up a lot of my time, I then hope to look at Category:Image (Character).

While we are on the subject of images I should also note that I have nominated all 4 of the SNL sketch images you uploaded for deletion because none of them are compliant with our image policy. We can keep them if you can get them up to scratch. I will check back on them in about a week. Let me know if you need any help adding the required information to them.--Opark 77 16:51, June 11, 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm just working through Special:UncategorizedFiles and I'm afraid that your SNL images are still not in compliance with the image policy. They need a description stating what they show (e.g. Adam Friedberg) and a category e.g. "Category:Image (Parody)". I have nominated them for deletion again.--Opark 77 12:21, June 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * I put it as "Image (In Other Media)" so we have room to grow with future references, i.e. The Simpsons.--The Dragon Demands 02:48, June 15, 2012 (UTC)

oh I see! and THANKS! Sorry, just getting back to your messages now, I didn't realize you sent them. (on other Wikis, it takes to right to whoever msged you)

Books
General rule is that if it's based on the TV series, yes, if not, then no. That's why we have an article on the GoT RPG computer game (which is licensed from the TV series) but not on the strategy game (which is based on the books alone). We also have an article on the Making GoT book (which is based on the TV series) but not the board games or roleplaying games (which are based on the books alone). Beyond the Wall is a little bit of a grey area, because it is predominantly about the books but a couple of the essays do reference the TV series. There is also an argument for making articles for the first two novels, since the TV series has passed their events, and noting the TV tie-in editions and how they adapted them to the TV series, but that may be unnecessary due to the 'differences between books and TV series' page.--Werthead 16:58, June 18, 2012 (UTC)

Remember
http://www.youtube.com/user/Balerion300/ --The Dragon Demands 01:25, June 20, 2012 (UTC)

Complete Guide to Westeros
Level 1 headers are never, in any wiki because they are too large, even in long articles. This might be the longest article here but look at the Palpatine article in Wookiepedia, for example. I do think, however, that the article should be split and each featurette be given its own article.--Gonzalo84 17:04, June 22, 2012 (UTC)


 * Well in that case I'll revert the headers rather than split up the article.--The Dragon Demands 19:03, June 22, 2012 (UTC)

Jaime image
Thanks for the heads up. I had messed that up, but not at the renaming stage. When I altered the image name in Template:Castportal I managed to duplicate the file extension, hence why it was not displaying; a marginally different careless mistake on my part.--Opark 77 21:18, June 24, 2012 (UTC)

Split "The Long Night" and the War for the Dawn
One is the time period, "the night that lasted a generation", and another is the war that took place during it.--Gonzalo84 20:43, June 26, 2012 (UTC)


 * Even A Wiki Of Ice and Fire keeps them as a single page. It isn't really worth dividing them into two things, because the war was in many ways synonymous with the event. I mean, objectively, even a single page about "The Long Night" wouldn't have that much content on it, and there would be an incredible amount of overlap between it and the "War for the Dawn".--The Dragon Demands 20:46, June 26, 2012 (UTC)

Timeline
I'm not sure about the changes. As has been said many times before, the wiki is about the TV series, not the books, so the dates need to be reverted to the TV series dates (i.e. Robert's Rebellion ends in 281 AL in the TV show, not 283 as in the book). In addition, at no point has it been said that 'everyone is two years older than in the books'. Dany is three years older, Joffrey four and Eddard and Robert are ten years or more older, whilst Ser Vardis Egen is many years younger than in the books. The age differences vary by character and by the needs of the series. There is no set rule.--Werthead 00:18, June 27, 2012 (UTC)


 * It varies by the needs of the character? Yikes, I was not aware. Well thats why we need to get that sorted out. Actually, I am trying to make the dates match the TV series, that's the point -- I'm confused about what the new TV series dates and ages are, exactly.--The Dragon Demands 00:22, June 27, 2012 (UTC)


 * I saw your edit fixing up the "differences from the books" section on the Timeline page, thank you.--The Dragon Demands 01:38, June 27, 2012 (UTC)

how are you with....
how are you with infobox creating? For some reason I cannot get this one to work. It only get's past the first box.. seasons together.. then nothing else shows up. Help!!! lol

-- 17:10, June 29, 2012 (UTC)


 * Seems to be working fine now. Sometimes it takes a few minutes for wikia to process a new template.--The Dragon Demands 17:26, June 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Okay, I will give it another try :) Thanks. -- 17:36, June 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Also, your talk page is getting long. You should make your first archive page :) You can use the template on my page if you want to. -- 17:51, June 29, 2012 (UTC)

my relationship page
Where do you think a good place to put the subarticle would be? User:QueenBuffy/Sandbox/Drogo and Daenerys -- 23:21, June 30, 2012 (UTC)


 * Modeling after Memory Alpha, the Star Trek Wiki ( http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Benjamin_Sisko ), make a subsection header after the season bios but before the quotes etc. (linking off the main page will increase visibility). Title would be just "Daenerys Targaryen and Khal Drogo relationship" I guess.--The Dragon Demands 00:02, July 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm confused. So maybe put a link under a "Relationships" section? I thought I'd put "Khal Drogo and Daenerys Targaryen" title, put the male name first, as it is usually Mr. and Mrs., etc. anyway. I will create the page, then you place it on Drogo's page, how you are thinking it should be... so I know what you are talking about. -- 00:36, July 1, 2012 (UTC)

Computer game info
The recently-released RPG is licensed by HBO and uses HBO imagery and sound (it has the same music and several voice actors, including Conleth Hill and James Cosmo), so we can cover it on the Wiki. We can't cover the earlier strategy game, Genesis, as that was based on the books alone. I don't think the RPG is part of the TV canon - it also mentions book-only events such as the reign of King Jaehaerys II which has been erased from the TV timeline - but it can certainly be mentioned where appropriate. The same will be true of the upcoming online game, which is also based on the TV series.--Werthead 14:42, July 9, 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh I didn't know they used stuff from the HBO show.--The Dragon Demands 13:53, July 10, 2012 (UTC)

Battle of the Trident
According to the books, more than half the royalist army were from the Bells, scattered and leaderless until found by Jonothor Darry and Ser Barristan, then force-marched to the Trident. Not to mention that they were assured of victory against a wounded Robert, then were butchered by Eddard's reinforcements.
 * Good points, good points. Nonetheless, due to the large number of new troops from the Crownlands and Dorne, I think it would be wrong to describe them as "tired" as a whole, any more than Robert's troops. The official summation is that Rhaegar's army was bigger, but Robert's was more battle-hardened while Rhaegar's were fresh but green. So the balance between "tired" and "experienced" vs "fresh" but "green". Either way I wouldn't describe the whole forced as "tired" due to the Bells. Connington made it a point that he retreated in good order from the Bells, it wasn't a route.--The Dragon Demands 00:39, July 12, 2012 (UTC)

Ironborn
Not a problem. Some of the spellings of terms and what is capitalised and what isn't is quite random in some cases :-) --Werthead (talk) 18:33, July 19, 2012 (UTC)

Talisa vs. Jeyne
Saw your talk page message but very late, sorry. I think it might be best to post it on the A Song of Ice and Fire wiki here on wikia (which uses the same interface) and then post a short introduction to it here, with a link. That way you can be as spoiler filled as you like without worrying about violating policies here.--Opark 77 (talk) 21:16, July 20, 2012 (UTC)


 * Sorry I wasn't clear I meant the A Song of Ice and Fire wiki here on wikia. What you have written on my talk page is fine, but I think I am incapable of really getting into discussing the implications of a change with other people who have read the books within the limits of the spoiler policy here, so I won't reply here.--Opark 77 (talk) 13:02, July 22, 2012 (UTC)


 * Well, the dozen or so regular editors will probably check out what I wrote on your talk page. --The Dragon Demands (talk) 17:11, July 24, 2012 (UTC)

Quotation marks
Using double quotes - " - traditionally denotes speech. When you put double quotes on something, it seems to be suggesting it's something to be said aloud, which really doesn't make sense to me in most of these uses at all. That's precisely why in British usage, you use single quotes - ' - to denote this. Using the doubles you have to look at the word and context to figure out if it's speech or not, whilst using the singles you automaticlally know it is not. That said, it does appear to be common American usage to use quotes in this fashion (which I was not previously aware of), so I guess we have to stick with that, as bizarre-looking (to my UK mentality) as it is :-) --Werthead (talk) 12:31, July 23, 2012 (UTC)

Heartsbane
I was wondering why my edit was removed. It's been mentioned in the TV series, if that's why it was removed. It's also mentioned on the House Tarly page, and not in the books section.Draevan13 (talk) 22:46, July 26, 2012 (UTC)

Book Four
Cheers for the heads up :)

Thedoucheinthenorth (talk) 22:05, July 27, 2012 (UTC)

Well, if it's one large book split across two 'volumes' (which is how I loaned & read it) so even though it might have been intended as one big book, it is still technically two books, SoSP1 and SoSP2, as far as I'm aware.

Thedoucheinthenorth (talk) 22:15, August 4, 2012 (UTC)

Undoing edits
When you undo an edit (other than vandalism) please can you post an explanation either in the edit summary or on the article's talk page.--Opark 77 (talk) 10:44, August 8, 2012 (UTC)


 * Okay. Oh for the thing about Brynden Tully I explained the edit on the first Undo and didn't repeat the subsequent ones I made in rapid succession. Also, sorry about removing the actor reference from "Jon Arryn" -- I was thinking of King Aerys II's page, in that the actor info was only put in the "behind the scenes" section because he wasn't "on screen" in the final version. I forgot that, even though he's just playing a dead body, the actor technically appears "on screen" for Jon Arryn, and thus should be retained in the header.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 17:22, August 8, 2012 (UTC)


 * I understand; I tend to copy and paste the explanation when I'm doing multiple undos. Cheers for your help cleaning up. No worries about the actor thing, easily done.--Opark 77 (talk) 18:38, August 8, 2012 (UTC)

Religion
Think I've fixed it. Any better?--Opark 77 (talk) 21:07, August 21, 2012 (UTC)

New screenshots
I think e should take care to employ only good quality screenshots.Gonzalo84 (talk) 05:04, August 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * I thought the ones I had were of reasonably good quality. I don't think many are High Definition shots. Either way, its better than no image, and a convenient placeholder which will hopefully one day be replaced with better screenshots as we make incremental upgrades during the long wait between future seasons. They're the best screenshots I have access to, and I thought they were okay.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 01:46, August 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * If you can't get hold of HD then uploading lower res ones is fine by me.--Opark 77 (talk) 10:16, August 23, 2012 (UTC)

Referencing
When referencing a website please could you give the following information:
 * 1) The author (if known)
 * 2) The publishing date (if known)
 * 3) The URL
 * 4) The title of the article
 * 5) The name of the website

It just makes for a more informative, better looking reference. I have added all of this information to your recent reference at the Lys article as an example.--Opark 77 (talk) 21:03, September 18, 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes. I'm not good with these, but I will endeavor to do so on a "monkey-see, monkey-do" basis (imitating the example you've given on "Lys" of what its supposed to look like). --The Dragon Demands (talk) 21:18, September 18, 2012 (UTC)

Thanks!--Opark 77 (talk) 21:31, September 18, 2012 (UTC)

The Seven
Aren't three of those statues for the same god? I think they have multiples to allow them to film burning them multiple times. That makes it only suitable for behind the scenes illustration to me, but quite interesting. I would go ahead and upload it if you still want it just tag it as fairuse and give the source as the blog URL. If you do still want it and would prefer me to upload it just drop me a message back on my talk page so I get an alert and I'd be glad to.--Opark 77 (talk) 21:31, September 18, 2012 (UTC)

All roads lead to King's Landing
In essence, we don't know. The ruby ford is on the lower Trident somewhere, but exactly where is not clear. The books mention it being on the Green Fork (not the Trident proper before it splits), but that seems odd since it would not put the ford on the direct route to the capital. Other references have it as a main ford over the Trident where the Kingsroad itself crosses over, near the Crossroads Inn. Some fans have speculated that all three rivers are collectively called 'the Trident' but the 'Green Fork' actually refers to the entire river all the way to the sea (i.e. making the Red and Blue Forks tributaries of the Green), which would solve the issue. But I do not believe GRRM has ever clarified the exact situation there.--Werthead (talk) 17:19, September 23, 2012 (UTC)


 * It should be noted that The Lands of Ice and Fire will not be canon for the TV series, since the depiction and outline of Essos in that book is completely different from that shown on the HBO map.--Werthead (talk) 20:01, October 12, 2012 (UTC)

Citation
I'm pressed for time this week. Can you cite the Winter is Coming article you sourced the Irri/Doreah photo from on both Irri and The Old Gods and the New please?--Opark 77 (talk) 21:59, October 3, 2012 (UTC)

Best wishes
That sounds frightening, sorry I didn't get a chance to reply earlier. I hope you are feeling better and are sleeping Ok. The warning not to fall asleep with a concussion really applies where there is concern that there is an underlying neurological injury that will show itself with reduced level of consciousness only if you are awake. It seems that the emergency physician you saw did not definitively diagnose a concussion and given that you had a CT they will have ruled out any bleeding/bruising around the brain (which are the kind of injury that is sometimes noticed with later onset reduced level of consciousness). I hope the tests show a clear and treatable cause for your collapse.

Please don't feel you need to apologize for not being as active here. It is great that your are a reliable, regular contributor but you volunteer your time and shouldn't feel guilty about not being able to do so for any reason, especially ill health.--Opark 77 (talk) 20:34, October 6, 2012 (UTC)

House Baratheon lineage
Ah, I see. I'm sorry about that. I thought that "5th year after Aegon's landing" referred to the tenure of the individual's reign as Storm King, rather than birth. That being said, do we take this man to be Orys' eldest son given the less than clear nature of the text? If so, is he article worthy, despite being nameless (at least to us) and do his five sons warrant articles as well? Regardless, I'll definitely work on a transcription, like you suggested. Thank you for your help. Jayden Matthews (talk) 09:54, October 12, 2012 (UTC)

Concept Art
As long as it's concept art from HBO themselves and has been released for public consumption, it's fair game for us. Scans from the Inside Game of Thrones book would not be acceptable, but anything released by HBO for publicity purposes is okay.--Werthead (talk) 20:03, October 12, 2012 (UTC)


 * I think/hope that the TV series map will itself be updated to reflect Lands of Ice and Fire.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 20:24, October 12, 2012 (UTC)

Transcription
Hey. Just letting you know that I've made a start on that transcription. You can view it here. Cheers. Jayden Matthews (talk) 15:57, October 14, 2012 (UTC)

In the books section, too much information
Sorry, just learning still. I'll get the hang of it. That's the reason I chose the screen name Ch'vyalthan - in that, when I get a subject I'm interested in, I tend to the pedantic. I'll try to do better and I appreciate the editing, I'll try not to make you do it to often, after all I don't want to wake the dragon. Nice picture of Daeron I.Ch&#39;vyalthan (talk) 20:14, October 29, 2012 (UTC)

P.S. I've been having strange problems with logging in and timing out. I wrote all about it to Opark77 and won't go into it all now. I would appreciate if you can tell me if there is a way for me to get off monobook and still be able to edit. Thanks. Ch'vyalthan.

I got your message and see your point, especially for the major characters like Tyrion. I do think that the chain was an important point, but maybe I could have put in a behind the scenes reference about that, since I think the battle was condensed due to budget concerns. Or I could mention the chain and battle then say see more at Battle of the Blackwater. I don't think Edmure Tully is going to be a major character, so I don't think space will ever be a problem for him. Hoster Tully is supposed to be dead when the show starts so maybe they will show his funeral, when I wrote it I didn't think about it, but I guess they could have an extra be his dead body. The stuff about the Battle of the Bells and his being wounded by Jon Covington the former Hand, that is background and as he is dead and it's in the past I don't think that could be a spoiler. Maybe the part of the group splitting up with Rickon and Osha separating for the others might since that might happen in the show still, but the stuff about Luwin that I wrote in the Hodor "in the book section" is there because it shows a difference from what was written in the season 2 section of Hodor. And the wineseller showing up in the vision in the house of the Undying happens in Qarth which has already happened and he is such a barely there character. Anyway I am trying to be succinct, but it's not really my nature I find everything so interesting. I really did try with Tyrion to just put really interesting changes from the books. I mean, I could have put a whole lot of other stuff in there (I did the Shae character and the part about Tyrion hiring the ugly guards - the eunuch strangler and the two hairy gay Ibbenese axemen who are only interested in each other made me laugh a lot.) Speaking of Shae I wasn't sure if I should have mentioned her back story, as they might do something about it in season three of the show, but it was in book two and I have been trying to use book placement as a guide for everything accept background information. Also, in Loras Tyrell there is a whole bunch of stuff about George R. R. Martin and what he did or did not say about "are they or aren't they" which I didn't put in, but I thought should probably be moved out of "in the books" and into a behind the scenes section, but it had a whole bunch of reference stuff which made it too difficult for me to do. I'm really new at this stuff. This is the first thing I've ever tried editing, and I hope I'm doing a decent job. I'm reading and rereading to try to keep from making spelling mistakes. I'll try to do better. From the length of this message, I think you can see what I mean about not being succinct.

On another note, my problems with logging in have straightened out. It took about a week, but it seems to have solved itself. I was able to change my settings from monobook back to wikia and I'm no longer timing out and losing my edits.

Thanks again for helping me. Your awards are impressive. 100 edits in one day! Wow! I was curious is there one for 150 or 200, or is that just physically impossible? ch'vyalthan Ch&#39;vyalthan (talk) 03:19, November 3, 2012 (UTC)

P.S. I had to come back, because I thought about it, and thought maybe I was too vague (that is something else I have a problem with, rambling and being vague). I do understand your point, you do not need to send me another explanation about the purpose of the "in the book section". Fundamentally, it comes down to a disagreement between us about what is important. The example of Tyrion building that chain, this was important to mention. It changed the whole battle and was an original idea. If Stannis could have landed those troops, and ferried the others in, it would have changed everything. It goes into how little credit Tyrion is getting from everyone. So my idea was I could put in a mention of how he put in the chain, how it altered the course of the battle, and then say, "see Battle of Blackwater. Would that be ok? Some things like Hoster Tully's military past is important in my view because I think that is why Edmure is trying too hard to be a big military leader, he has his father's reputation to live up too. I have been primarily concerned with no spoilers, sometimes this is difficult, because parts of book three showed up in season 2, and you never know if something that was in book two might still show up in season 3. Anyway, I completely understand that you will edit my stuff and take things out, but please allow that if I think a specific point is important that I can try to condense it or alter it so it will not be a waste of space. I do understand you are much better at this than I am, and I will try hard to learn from you. Sorry for this becoming something of a dissertation. Ch'vyalthan.Ch&#39;vyalthan (talk) 05:18, November 3, 2012 (UTC)

Serial comma and real world stuff
In answer to your question on your user page, I frequently leave out the serial comma (in error) because it is non standard in British English. I have been making an effort to include it since you made me aware of it (on this and other wikis about American series).

Glad to hear your power is back on. My family in Stroudsburg, PA had a similar outage in the wake of Sandy but are all otherwise OK. Best wishes to you and yours.

I have been away for the past week myself, just on a short trip with my wife. Thanks for keeping up with recent changes over that time.--Opark 77 (talk) 07:53, November 6, 2012 (UTC)

House Sigils
Oops, my bad, lol. Thanks for the correction! :) Savannah   Star  01:04, November 22, 2012 (UTC)

Talisa, Jeyne Westerling - Is she or isn't she
I was over on Oparks talk page and I saw your posting on Talisa. I never go to speculation sites, but I think I'm pretty good at spotting things and there have been clues (which I won't discuss here). I think Talisa is a compilation character taking the place of Jeyne Westerling, not Jeyne herself. I think she's going to turn out to be a mash-up of the roles Sybell Spicer and Lady Taena Merryweather. I don't think that's a spoiler, as these are just two names that anyone who hasn't read the books will never have heard. If you want to talk about this we can go into chat some time when we are both on site.Ch&#39;vyalthan (talk) 00:43, November 23, 2012 (UTC)

Quote
Hi DD. The quote you were asking after is from "The Kingsroad". The Knight of the Flowers (talk) 16:28, November 26, 2012 (UTC)

Tyrion: "My father was Hand of the King for twenty years." Jon: "Until your brother killed that king." Tyrion: "Yes. Until my brother killed him."


 * Thanks. Hmmm....I still think it was just Jon paraphrasing what actually happened, and shouldn't be taken too literally. Hopefully later detail will confirm this. Even so, the "Complete Guide to Westeros" (voiced by the actual actor) points out that he resigned in protest some time before the war itself began.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 21:04, November 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * I expect you're right about that. It's a shame they can't be consistent. Perhaps a note in the trivia section would be in order? The Knight of the Flowers (talk) 17:27, December 3, 2012 (UTC)

​White Walkers night/day scenes.
If you watch the premiere and the finale scenes, you'll notice it's a lot brighter than the night scene in, say, The Night Lands, where it's clearly night time. Odds are the producers don't know about the Others appearing only at night since it's only mentioned in A Feast for Crows, and don't realise their error just yet. Draevan13 (talk) 18:14, December 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * You raise a valid point and I'm not trying to shut you down or anything...but I'd kind of hoped that the admins would get in on this discussion; the two of us alone can't sort it out and it needs outside arbitration.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:18, December 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * True, the admins would help. I'll admit the series premiere scene might be at night, but in the season 2 finale, you can see the sun through the clouds at the end. Draevan13 (talk) 18:24, December 2, 2012 (UTC)

House Durrendon
I'll create a House Durrendon article. Why? we have one on House Hoare even if only Harren the Black has been established but not actually named as "Hoare".--Gonzalo84 (talk) 21:31, December 3, 2012 (UTC)


 * ...I fully agree! We've been chafing under these petty specifics for too long; we know damn well what they are in the books, exactly like House Hoare, and they were *implied* by mentioning the Storm Kings. I'll continue this at the Talk page for that article...--The Dragon Demands (talk) 01:27, December 4, 2012 (UTC)

Torrhen and Eddard in the books
I think you should shorten the comparisions between book and TV. They are too cumbersome to read and you repeat several times about the characters dying in the Whispering Wood.Gonzalo84 (talk) 06:47, December 7, 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you for shortening those, I meant to get to it.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 02:33, December 9, 2012 (UTC)

Complete Guide to Westeros
Ok, I went over it, and I see what I did wrong. I had watched the videos on YouTube and I transcribed every word exactly. What you want is a synopsis. I will go through the ones I did and change them. I guess that it goes against copyright? Ch&#39;vyalthan (talk) 00:17, December 11, 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry about the grammatical errors, I'll try to do better. I think I did that while I was tired.Ch&#39;vyalthan (talk) 06:57, December 12, 2012 (UTC)


 * I have calmed down, the fault was mine: I realize that I've had such little time that I wasn't even able to point out some things you were doing incorrectly, and thus, you didn't know that you were repeating the mistakes. I'll walk you through how to fix things when Christmas Break starts.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 17:56, December 12, 2012 (UTC)

RE: Userboxes
Ack! I hadn't noticed that, but thank you! The biggest mistake of the show was cutting the Rainbow Guard! 14:16, December 17, 2012 (UTC)

Qarth
That line was in the book.Ch&#39;vyalthan (talk) 01:55, December 21, 2012 (UTC)

Hi
Hi Dragon. I'll be online for the next hour or so, if you wanted to go into the chat room. 20:09, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

Sandbox
I plan to use the sand box, just as soon as I am able to try it out and to prove that I can write stuff there and move it to other pages, but I can't do that until I finish this recap. I'll try it with my next Complete History and Lore of Westeros Article.Ch&#39;vyalthan (talk) 23:36, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

I have not been working on the blog, I just put down a few notes the day before yesterday. I have been working on the Recap since I started it yesterday. Ch&#39;vyalthan (talk) 23:53, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

Quick Note
Just a quick note- when you write in summary... you may want to watch how you word things. Like "these are EMBARRASSING spelling mistakes.", as the editor is most than likely trying their best when editing. We don't want to make a user feel bad for editing here. :) Thanks. 23:25, December 27, 2012 (UTC)


 * I know. I am specifically commenting on those changes made by Ch'vyalthan, with comments directed specifically at Ch'vyalthan. I wouldn't normally do this.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 23:28, December 27, 2012 (UTC)

War of Five Kings
The term War of THE Five Kings is used in the books only once. As for the quote... yes, I also feel we need a better one. Yet the previous one was about the execution of Ned... at best such quote would be used in a "causes" or "prelude" section.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 06:21, December 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well it gives the cause of the war. Well, as I said, I *really* hope Season 3 gives us a better quote. I think they didn't during the build-up to Season 2 because Balon Greyjoy was still a surprise at the time.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 06:22, December 29, 2012 (UTC)

Hello
Hello there. I'm new to this site, having signed up today, I'm just taking this opportunity to introduce myself, and to offer my assistance in any way I can. The Bastard of Bolton (talk) 17:09, December 30, 2012 (UTC)

House Frey quote
That's the one!--Gonzalo84 (talk) 00:46, January 3, 2013 (UTC)

Grainy cropped photos
There are a number of grainy cropped photos courtesy of the infamous Chrys... lets replace them with better quality, uncropped photos. Whadya say?--Gonzalo84 (talk) 02:28, January 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * It's on the list....and there is an actual "List".--The Dragon Demands (talk) 03:37, January 4, 2013 (UTC)

Photos
I still have no idea how to save photos or set up a file to this IPad, but I do have tech support, and when I get a chance I plan to have a long telephone conversation with the poor person who gets stuck answering my call, so that they can walk me through it. Most of the photos that I add are fine, but I will stop adding ones where the person is not the main character and is just part of the group scene, even if it is the right scene. And I will also not add pictures of the object being used in the scene. I will just add photos where the person in the scene being discussed is a main character of the photo. And as soon as I can download and post my own photos, I will be happier than anyone. And I have not forgotten the gallery for the Great Hall of the Red Keep. I have a good memory, even though at times it doesn't seem as if I do. That gallery is the first thing I will be getting photos for, when I'm able to do so.

This weekend and the beginning of next week is going to be a mess for me, and I will probably not be posting much, but later next week I will have some free time and maybe then. I need to be able to get my own photos as I want to do another relationship article sometime in the near future. I just can't decide between Eddard and Catelyn Stark or Robert and Cersei Baratheon. Not sure which one I want to do first. Don't worry I'll finish what I'm working on now before I start. Have to go now, I got another message about needing to add some Catagories.Ch&#39;vyalthan (talk) 04:30, January 4, 2013 (UTC)


 * Hi guys. Sorry to but in, but I couldn't help but notice your difficulties, Ch'vyalthan. As it happens, I also own an iPad (though I don't use it for editing) And I can tell you that downloading images is almost exactly the same as if you were using a laptop, or desktop. You simply move your cursor over the image, tap, or double tap (depending on which model you have). Your device should then prompt you as to what you want to do with the image, copy, save, open etc. It really is as easy as that. I hope this helps.--The Bastard of Bolton (talk) 11:16, January 4, 2013 (UTC)

Brackets
Im sorry, i did not know. ill revent further edits like that.Cheatcodechamp (talk) 21:17, January 5, 2013 (UTC)

Complete Guide to Westeros
There's a nascent discussion there. I'd like your opinion on the matter.Gonzalo84 (talk) 21:58, January 5, 2013 (UTC)

Just making notes
I'm not going to write a humorous blog anytime soon, I was just making notes on several things. I'm not going to do anything major until I finish the Complete Guide to Westeros which is what I was most recently working on. And then I'm going to do another relationship article. But this weekend and the beginning of next week will make it impossible to start anything major right now, so I've only been doing a few minor edits. I don't talk about my life, but I have no way of knowing when I will have time to be on the site or sleep or anything.

I asked Gonzalo a question about whether the fact that Robert Baratheon went hunting whenever Cersei went into labor, was a relevant fact to put in the Cersei Lannister article. He took it out so maybe he thought it should have been posted in Robert's article instead. I am getting better and I don't think I made a single grammar mistake yesterday in anything I wrote.Ch&#39;vyalthan (talk) 02:48, January 6, 2013 (UTC)

Theon a fool
It was not just my opinion, it was in the books. The note section contains differences between the series and the books, and in the book Asha tells him that he could have won the whole war. This wasn't put into the tv series. In the series, he was just an idiot for attacking Winterfell at all. In the books if he had just burned Winterfell and taken Bran and Rickon hostage, everything would have been different.


 * Whether he's a fool, or a genius, or whatever is your opinion, not the author's. Even if a character has an opinion its the character's opinion, not "the book's". You can argue Ned was a fool to warn Cersei, that Sansa is an idiot... whatever you want... but that doesn't belong in an article Ch'vyalthan.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 08:26, January 6, 2013 (UTC)

Things to do
Hi, Dragon. I was just browsing through the episode recap category, and noticed a few missing. I thought perhaps something I could do to make a substantial contribution to the community would be to complete these, starting with "Winter is Coming"?--The Bastard of Bolton (talk) 12:45, January 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, we never got to the level of detail in the Season 1 episodes that we got to in Season 2 (there were more people online when Season 2 started airing and we were focusing on what was coming out at the time).--The Dragon Demands (talk) 02:04, January 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * The overtly detailed recaps for season 2 began when the recaps in season 2 episode articles got too detailed for the taste of some contributors (myself included), so the agreement was to have recap articles for the detailed version and a more synthesized version at the episode articles. And we never got to do Season 1 because there's still lot of work to do but too little committed contributors.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 02:29, January 7, 2013 (UTC)

Busy
Dragon, you have no idea how tired I am right now. And song of ice and fire takes no time at all. I go on it when I have five or ten minutes, find any character page, and add a paragraph. Most of the characters there have practically nothing on the pages. Or I can create a new page for a character and add two sentences about them. It's really very relaxing.

Looking at my list of edits it might seem as if I'm doing work, but go to the pages and you'll see it's not that much effort.

Last time I was there I did Tyrek Lannister, Ermesande Hayford, and House Hayford, for which I added pretty much the same paragraph of information. I created a page for Xaro Xhoan Daxos writing three sentences about him, and then had an additional edit to put him in the character category. Seven of the edits I made were just to add people to the character category, which is the only category I ever put in, and it takes all of five seconds. Then I made a page for Pyatt Pree; then I had to make a note to delete the page as the name was misspelled, stupid mistake. I'm saying that it might seem like I was there a long time as there are a bunch of edits, but I really wasn't. Some of the edits were more substantial I think I put in three paragraphs about Daenerys, three of my edits were on her article. Believe me I haven't been spending a lot of time there. I actually spent time here today. Tomorrow I probably will barely be here at all.

The time I have taken on this note to you is probably more than I even spent doing the Daenerys article. Ch&#39;vyalthan (talk) 04:58, January 7, 2013 (UTC)


 * I am not convinced by these excuses. I was tired when you spam posted hundreds of edits from late November through December...the height of finals season for the Fall semester - sort of a wiki faux pas to launch into a massive editing spree at that time of the year. My hands were tied. They aren't now. In case you haven't noticed, since Christmas break began I have been systematically rolling back or revising all of the articles you've made shoddy edits on. It took some doing....but since mid-November, even if I couldn't sit down and invest time in editing articles that you did a slapdash entry on....I could at least make a running list of all of the bizarre or sloppy edits you made. Riot of King's Landing is the last on the list. You are lazy and comically inept at wiki editing; and you have shown little or no regard for the other editors on here. Do you honestly think that the halfhearted insincere apologies you repeatedly make...had us fooled? The charm offensive did not succeed.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 05:03, January 7, 2013 (UTC)

I am much more carefully now, and I am not making the same mistakes. I have been making smaller edits and taking a great deal more care with grammar and spelling. I will be adding my own pictures as soon as I find out how. I will be writing articles as soon as I have time. My apologies are sincere. And if you think any of my old edits need redoing, please tell me and I will correct them. Wednesday or Thursday I will have time, and I can go back to completing "The Complete Guide to Westeros". Ch&#39;vyalthan (talk) 05:32, January 7, 2013 (UTC)

An article on Magic
Before the next season begins and we get the usual Cambrian explosion of new articles (and vandals). Would you be up to the task?--Gonzalo84 (talk) 19:21, January 17, 2013 (UTC)


 * I am in the Chat room now.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 19:22, January 17, 2013 (UTC)

Grand Maester
Apparently a lot more info on the maesters, including how long they've been around, will be revealed in The World of Ice and Fire. As it stands, we simply have no info at all on how long they've been around and they could be a fairly recent addition to the world. As for the hierarchy, it appears that the Grand Maester is the titular head of the order, but his position in King's Landing - a long way from the Citadel - means that the day-to-day running of the organisation is handled by the Conclave. The exact relationship between them remains unclear, however.--Werthead (talk) 17:46, January 20, 2013 (UTC)

(talk) 23:26, January 20, 2013 (UTC)I

Smallfolk
Smallfolk is synonymous with "commoner" --> anyone who is not a noble (or a knight for that matter). Men-at-arms are usually smallfolk since many of them are peasants summoned to fight for their lords. Becoming a household guard doesn't make anyone not smallfolk. Check out ASoIaF and you'll see who's categorized as such.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 05:16, January 22, 2013 (UTC)

About Valyria
A Valyria category would be more useful. And an article for the city itself.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 05:18, January 22, 2013 (UTC)

Characters by place of origin
Another type of categorization like the one used at AWoIaF. Whatdya' think?--Gonzalo84 (talk) 19:08, January 23, 2013 (UTC)

Quote Needed
Just making a note to let you know that I'm adding articles to the "Quote Needed" category. I have double checked and these characters have quotes. Ch&#39;vyalthan (talk) 19:19, January 23, 2013 (UTC)

Quotes
I changed the Matthos quote because quotes, specially when we only use one at the article head and not in every subsection (Background, season summary) its better to use one that describes the character and his/her philosophy (like Jaime's "no other men like me"). I also think its better to have single lines than dialogues whenever possible.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 22:03, January 24, 2013 (UTC)

Edits
I have not just been adding to actors; I have done a lot of things. I just corrected a bunch of mistakes in many articles. I found reference to Jason Mamoa, Barratheon, Danerys, Harrenhall, and I corrected them all. I just found the term "armies vanguard" in Hearteater. The actor article for Kit Harington had him named Kit Harrington ( with two R's). I'm going through episodes and correcting punctuation. I'm adding quotations. I do contribute.Ch&#39;vyalthan (talk) 23:15, January 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * So we shouldn't ban you because you're turning in wonderful work AS A GLORIFIED SPELLCHECKER? I don't know if your web-browser is the same as mine, but in my version, wavey red lines appear under words which are misspelled (though it doesn't work on Proper Names or saying "your" instead of "you're"). That's what makes you a beautiful and unique snowflake? A valued contributor? That you spellchecked your own crap work which I already had to spend a month gutting and replacing? You offend me. --The Dragon Demands (talk) 23:37, January 24, 2013 (UTC)

Salladhor quote
Can't we agree on a different quote then? --Gonzalo84 (talk) 23:39, January 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * well if you're really set against using a multi-line quote, I'm for just going back to "You think I'm insulted, I am a pirate..." etc. --The Dragon Demands (talk) 23:48, January 24, 2013 (UTC)

Davos
Davos is a landed knight, not a lord or a lesser lord. That's why he's "Ser Davos" nor "Lord Davos"... and "the Onion Knight", not "the Onion Lord"--Gonzalo84 (talk) 06:43, January 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh. I honestly thought he was a minor lord. The difference between "landed knight" and "minor lord" is often blurry. As a medieval history student, I find it more annoying than most that GRRM doesn't use distinct terms for Minor Lord/Major Lord/Great House Lord ("baron", "lord", and "duke" may have fit better); though others have pointed this out to GRRM and he's grudgingly admitted it doesn't make much sense. --The Dragon Demands (talk) 15:40, January 26, 2013 (UTC)


 * The difference, according to what I've read in the ASoIaF wiki (don't remember the proper source) is that landed knights can't dispense justice in their own lands, while lords, even if sworn to other lords, can. Knights must bring matters before their liege lords.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 00:07, January 27, 2013 (UTC)


 * Davos is a landed knight at the start of ACoK. He is promoted to a 'proper' lord later on by Stannis.--Werthead (talk) 13:02, February 2, 2013 (UTC)

Block log
YEP! I know right! I saw that and instantly blocked him/her. We definitely don't need that drama! 22:25, January 26, 2013 (UTC)

AWOIAF
Well... Kovarro is more of an expy (a similar character) than a renamed Jhogo (Jhogo having being merged with Rakharo). Kind of like the Spice King being a something of composite of the Pureborn and some of the "sissy" traits of Xaro that got removed from TV Xaro.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 03:25, January 31, 2013 (UTC)

Summer Islands and Sothoryos
I think the Summer Islands should stand as their own entity. Maybe have a 'world' template which lists the major continents and then places like the Summer Islands which are hard to qualify (Ibben could go on there as well, although it is much more closely tied to Essos by its colonies and proximity). We have no in-book or in-show information which links the Summer Islands to Sothoroys, only guesswork which we really shouldn't be relying on.--Werthead (talk) 13:02, February 2, 2013 (UTC)


 * Well, that's my view, yup.--Werthead (talk) 22:57, February 2, 2013 (UTC)